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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Of course it can if the rates of people being knocked off their bikes on quiet backstreets remain of limited significance but those on the main roads increase.

Are you predicting that across London cycling will increase but cycling casualties will fall? Let's revisit this when someone produces some numbers.

The problem of road killings is not cyclists, the problem is cars. Get rid of cars you get rid of road traffic casualties. Are you really so far down the wormhole that you are arguing that cars are the solution to road deaths?
 
Of course it can if the rates of people being knocked off their bikes on quiet backstreets remain of limited significance but those on the main roads increase.

Are you predicting that across London cycling will increase but cycling casualties will fall? Let's revisit this when someone produces some numbers.

Cyclists will switch from main routes to quieter routes.
 
Cyclists will switch from main routes to quieter routes.


Also people who currently cycle are by definition those who are not intimidated off the roads as they are. They are still a small minority - not surprisingly. Back in 2010 Lambeth surveyed school pupils on how they would most want to travel to school, 40% wanted to cycle, 2% actually did. These are the kind of journeys that may start to happen - the one-two mile local ones.
 
Sure. I don't use it much but I hope it's improved for cyclists, there has to be some positives from all this. My point however, is that in itself it's not much use except for a few very local trips. For most journeys you'll have to contend with the snarling, dangerous mess at each end, which is where the real dangers are.
It helps though, and they've brought in wands down by the side of Brockwell park, once you get down to Brixton you can use a Bus lane all the way up to Oval and get on the Cycle super highways there.
 
Railton road was definitely dangerous, so much so that I wouldn't cycle down it if I could - and I go on A roads sometimes.
I just don't get this. I am by no means a hardened cyclist but I cycled the length of Railton every day - more often than not with a child on board. Yes it can be luxuriously empty now (of bikes and cars) but it was also rarely the hell track I hear described on here. There were random speeders before and there are random speeders still. Buses still floor it. People still overtake just to cut you up at junctions from time to time. Occasionally drivers even try to push past me in the new gates, which is hairy. I still cycle almost daily between Brixton to Herne Hill and usually choose to cycle on the Dulwich road because it is so very slightly shorter than via Railton and also does not feel dangerous.

Same with St Matthews Road (which still has no cameras by the way).

The more I think about LTNs and read the polar arguments on here the more I think that gates which only immediate locals are allowed to use are probably the answer for the time being. Like they are trialing in Fulham. At least to start with. I suspect this would remove the bulk of local resistance and deliver most of the rat run benefits and push non local traffic onto main roads. I'd probably allow services such as waste collection through (even if just on collection days) - I just can't see much advantage in their having to drive extra miles to skirt the gates. If it didn't deliver then it could be easily changed.

I guess that to use the gates you would have apply and register your vehicle. Perhaps there would be a one off registration fee to cover admin costs.

To discourage short local journeys, I'd combine it with smaller parking zones which make it more difficult to, for instance, drive from the top of Brixton Hill and park a bit closer to the town center. (I met someone the other day who had driven down from Clapham end Ferndale Road to park in St Matthews Road (both zone BR) to walk into the center - WTF?)

I appreciate that this is not the purist vision but baby steps are the path to least resistance.
 
The more I think about LTNs and read the polar arguments on here the more I think that gates which only immediate locals are allowed to use are probably the answer for the time being. Like they are trialing in Fulham. At least to start with. I suspect this would remove the bulk of local resistance and deliver most of the rat run benefits and push non local traffic onto main roads. I'd probably allow services such as waste collection through (even if just on collection days) - I just can't see much advantage in their having to drive extra miles to skirt the gates. If it didn't deliver then it could be easily changed.

I think these would be a massive improvement and have argued for them in my time but they've always been rejected in the past as too expensive.

This is the sort of thing that I have in mind when I keep asking - so what do we do then? Build more motorways? The pro-car lobby never seems to have a better plan, it's just complaining about an obviously unsolvable problem (ie how to base our urban transport policy around cars, or the desires of car-drivers, and also have an urban transport policy that even remotely works for most people).
 
I think these would be a massive improvement and have argued for them in my time but they've always been rejected in the past as too expensive.
By whom? I can believe it was too expensive in the past but I don't imagine that the main tech is all that different from what is now being used to monitor the gates (which three months on they still have not fitted in St Matthews Road). But I don't know.
 
I am by no means a hardened cyclist

You might underestimate the extent to which you are "hardened" though - in relative terms to others including new cyclists.

It seems that lots of people now find it more appealing to cycle down Railton Rd. Even if you could show that the level of danger had not changed all that much, perceptions are very important and affect journey choices, and this is supposed to be about encouraging people to change their journey choices.

Someone might well be likely to choose to cycle, where there they hadn't before, even if you could prove to them that the level of danger had not changed: they would choose to do it because it previously felt stressful and unpleasant and now it doesn't.
 
I just don't get this. I am by no means a hardened cyclist but I cycled the length of Railton every day - more often than not with a child on board. Yes it can be luxuriously empty now (of bikes and cars) but it was also rarely the hell track I hear described on here. There were random speeders before and there are random speeders still. Buses still floor it. People still overtake just to cut you up at junctions from time to time. Occasionally drivers even try to push past me in the new gates, which is hairy. I still cycle almost daily between Brixton to Herne Hill and usually choose to cycle on the Dulwich road because it is so very slightly shorter than via Railton and also does not feel dangerous.

Same with St Matthews Road (which still has no cameras by the way).

The more I think about LTNs and read the polar arguments on here the more I think that gates which only immediate locals are allowed to use are probably the answer for the time being. Like they are trialing in Fulham. At least to start with. I suspect this would remove the bulk of local resistance and deliver most of the rat run benefits and push non local traffic onto main roads. I'd probably allow services such as waste collection through (even if just on collection days) - I just can't see much advantage in their having to drive extra miles to skirt the gates. If it didn't deliver then it could be easily changed.

I guess that to use the gates you would have apply and register your vehicle. Perhaps there would be a one off registration fee to cover admin costs.

To discourage short local journeys, I'd combine it with smaller parking zones which make it more difficult to, for instance, drive from the top of Brixton Hill and park a bit closer to the town center. (I met someone the other day who had driven down from Clapham end Ferndale Road to park in St Matthews Road (both zone BR) to walk into the center - WTF?)

I appreciate that this is not the purist vision but baby steps are the path to least resistance.

I'd be prepared to compromise on this. Would want the current LTNs to be trialled for 6 months first though and data collected.
 
To discourage short local journeys, I'd combine it with smaller parking zones which make it more difficult to, for instance, drive from the top of Brixton Hill and park a bit closer to the town center. (I met someone the other day who had driven down from Clapham end Ferndale Road to park in St Matthews Road (both zone BR) to walk into the center - WTF?)

This seems like a good suggestion. I wonder if it would meet with resistance? Would you get the same objections about short but essential car journeys being frustrated, as we see with the LTNs?
 
This seems like a good suggestion. I wonder if it would meet with resistance? Would you get the same objections about short but essential car journeys being frustrated, as we see with the LTNs?
It's been done before. No resistance. BIR zone.
 
By whom? I can believe it was too expensive in the past but I don't imagine that the main tech is all that different from what is now being used to monitor the gates (which three months on they still have not fitted in St Matthews Road). But I don't know.

I'm going back 10 years or more, I was arguing for them on a rat run in Stockwell where I lived at the time (in response to a consultation which resulted in all that remodelling around the Dorset estate between South Lambeth and Clapham Rd).

I have no idea about the real cost figures, but this was the standard response to the smart gate suggestion from council officers and councillors - but then again as Gramsci has pointed out, Lambeth consultations are basically bullshit and they are just ticking a box before doing what they had always decided to do, so god knows if the cost objection was true.
 
I cycled down Railton road last Thursday about 4pm. It was a lot nicer with no traffic.

I did see Hamiltons looking somewhat forlorn on its own. So wonder how much passing trade he is losing.

On Friday came back nearby and CHL was at a standstill at 7pm. From Ritzy to Gresham road. I'd like to know how much of this is due to the Railton LTN.
Sounds like you have encapsulated the entire issue in three sentences.
 
I just don't get this. I am by no means a hardened cyclist but I cycled the length of Railton every day - more often than not with a child on board. Yes it can be luxuriously empty now (of bikes and cars) but it was also rarely the hell track I hear described on here. There were random speeders before and there are random speeders still. Buses still floor it. People still overtake just to cut you up at junctions from time to time. Occasionally drivers even try to push past me in the new gates, which is hairy. I still cycle almost daily between Brixton to Herne Hill and usually choose to cycle on the Dulwich road because it is so very slightly shorter than via Railton and also does not feel dangerous.

Same with St Matthews Road (which still has no cameras by the way).

The more I think about LTNs and read the polar arguments on here the more I think that gates which only immediate locals are allowed to use are probably the answer for the time being. Like they are trialing in Fulham. At least to start with. I suspect this would remove the bulk of local resistance and deliver most of the rat run benefits and push non local traffic onto main roads. I'd probably allow services such as waste collection through (even if just on collection days) - I just can't see much advantage in their having to drive extra miles to skirt the gates. If it didn't deliver then it could be easily changed.

I guess that to use the gates you would have apply and register your vehicle. Perhaps there would be a one off registration fee to cover admin costs.

To discourage short local journeys, I'd combine it with smaller parking zones which make it more difficult to, for instance, drive from the top of Brixton Hill and park a bit closer to the town center. (I met someone the other day who had driven down from Clapham end Ferndale Road to park in St Matthews Road (both zone BR) to walk into the center - WTF?)

I appreciate that this is not the purist vision but baby steps are the path to least resistance.
That’s a great response thanks for being honest. That’s all we are saying, allow some flexibility in the decision taken. Don’t just steam ahead at all costs if right across London communities are flagging up the same issues. Find a flexibility, pause and consult the parts of the communities who are telling you they are struggling and LAMBETH don’t call residents in Shakespeare Rd who set up www.onerailton.co.uk website ‘members of the BNP with shady funding’!!! (Yep! that’s what they are saying!!) just because we disagreed with you and think traffic evaporation is a ‘myth’!! Lizzie Berrington ( that’s my ‘not shady’ Equity Union
name.) thnx ( Sorry Rushy I hijacked that post with my message to Lambeth would tell fibs!)
 
10 per minute over an 18 hour day on a backstreet? How many were on the ones that weren't thoroughfares?
Yup, that sounds about right, it's a major rat run. In fact Lambeth identified the ward as the one with the second highest traffic problems in the borough (after Oval). Still waiting for an LTN though....
Not sure I understand your second question? Do you mean how many are on the main roads? No idea - that would be data from TFL I think.
Or how much of that is rat running? At a guess I would say 90% at least, I think Lambeth have some figures from 18/19 which I'm trying to get hold of
 
You might underestimate the extent to which you are "hardened" though - in relative terms to others including new cyclists.
And you might be conveniently overestimating how "hardened" I am because it fits your narrative. My post was comparing experiences of two everyday local London cyclists on a specific road which we both know. Of course I might look "hardened" to you as you rarely ride bikes. My three year old on his balance bike is probably indistinguishable from Kyle Evans from where you are googling. Nevertheless, your own reluctance to travel on two wheels does not make me a hardened cyclist.
 
Sounds like you have encapsulated the entire issue in three sentences.

"CHL at a standstill from Ritzy to Gresham road"? Lawks!

Except - I lived in Brixton for 25 years from 1985 to 2010 and I've seen that literally on a weekly basis, it's absolutely normal, always has been. There's a reason; roads fill to the capacity available, one little thing goes wrong, boom they're fucked. Nothing can be done about this, it's just what cars do.

In the 60s the plan was to turn CHL into a motorway and I can guarantee you that if they had, that on a regular basis, that road would have been blocked from the smouldering ashes of the demolished Ritzy (ffs it's just a shitty old cinema, everyone's going to be watching tv in a couple of years) through to the Gresham Rd slipway. I guess you could claim there'd be some progress - your motorway would be containing at least twice as many cars as CHL currently does, but then again since they'd be standing still the same amount it looks rather like a bad outcome - but maybe you disagree?

Does anyone support building the CHL motorway? Does anyone think that increasing capacity leads to smoothly flowing traffic? I keep asking.
 
Does anyone support building the CHL motorway? Does anyone think that increasing capacity leads to smoothly flowing traffic? I keep asking.

They'll continue to ignore this question along with mine about whether the logic should be carried through to re-open all streets that are already blocked to through traffic and which in many cases have been for years.
 
They'll continue to ignore this question along with mine about whether the logic should be carried through to re-open all streets that are already blocked to through traffic and which in many cases have been for years.

How about that great 1980s bit of Thatcherite 'blue-skies' policy proposing that we close all of London's suburban commuter trains and convert them into roads?

After all no one wants to go by train any more, and at the same time you'd solve the capacity problem for cars, huzzah!

I remember thinking these morons are just fanatically pro-car enough to do this and shaking my head, but luckily it turned out that lots of tory voters in outer boroughs do want to use trains having worked out for themselves that all trying to drive in to the centre at the same time is stupid so we were saved.

Maybe the carheads on this thread should be blaming this short-sighted bit of political opportunism for our current mess rather than LTNs? Imagine, no trains! Surely that would make car travel easier?
 
"CHL at a standstill from Ritzy to Gresham road"? Lawks!

Except - I lived in Brixton for 25 years from 1985 to 2010 and I've seen that literally on a weekly basis, it's absolutely normal, always has been. There's a reason; roads fill to the capacity available, one little thing goes wrong, boom they're fucked. Nothing can be done about this, it's just what cars do.
CHL has been a lot busier recently. I obviously don't like it because I live on the street and am going to suffer from the increased pollution. I'd like to have what those lucky people on Railton Road have got please!
 
CHL has been a lot busier recently. I obviously don't like it because I live on the street and am going to suffer from the increased pollution. I'd like to have what those lucky people on Railton Road have got please!

I do sympathise, I guess this is mostly displaced off the Shakespeare Rd cut through? But the shitter it gets, ultimately the fewer people will do it.
 
"CHL at a standstill from Ritzy to Gresham road"? Lawks!

Except - I lived in Brixton for 25 years from 1985 to 2010 and I've seen that literally on a weekly basis, it's absolutely normal, always has been. There's a reason; roads fill to the capacity available, one little thing goes wrong, boom they're fucked. Nothing can be done about this, it's just what cars do.

In the 60s the plan was to turn CHL into a motorway and I can guarantee you that if they had, that on a regular basis, that road would have been blocked from the smouldering ashes of the demolished Ritzy (ffs it's just a shitty old cinema, everyone's going to be watching tv in a couple of years) through to the Gresham Rd slipway. I guess you could claim there'd be some progress - your motorway would be containing at least twice as many cars as CHL currently does, but then again since they'd be standing still the same amount it looks rather like a bad outcome - but maybe you disagree?

Does anyone support building the CHL motorway? Does anyone think that increasing capacity leads to smoothly flowing traffic? I keep asking.
I have lived here 30 years I walk, tube and use the car about twice a week next year with ULEZ that will go. I think their must be flexibility, the current roll out of LTN’s without addressing issues on RMR’s isn’t fair. I don’t have answers it’s not my job I’m hearing things here and there. But after this experience certainly will be learning more I I realise to only take the stance of No, no, no!’ is useless. So ppl opposing the LTN in its current form are not all metal heads we are just saying that businesses are struggling, what other measures are there to mitigate their difficulties because there is real distress which will fester. Why let that happen? I’ve got work to do so probably won’t post much more! L
 
I do sympathise, I guess this is mostly displaced off the Shakespeare Rd cut through? But the shitter it gets, ultimately the fewer people will do it.
That’s the theory again but unfortunately the hard evidence isn’t there. I’m not persuaded by the ‘disappearing traffic’ argument at all. This is really what everything hangs on!
 
The idea of allowing residents in LTNs to be able to use bus gates using ANPR has been suggested previously on this thread.
 
"CHL at a standstill from Ritzy to Gresham road"? Lawks!

Except - I lived in Brixton for 25 years from 1985 to 2010 and I've seen that literally on a weekly basis, it's absolutely normal, always has been. There's a reason; roads fill to the capacity available, one little thing goes wrong, boom they're fucked. Nothing can be done about this, it's just what cars do.

In the 60s the plan was to turn CHL into a motorway and I can guarantee you that if they had, that on a regular basis, that road would have been blocked from the smouldering ashes of the demolished Ritzy (ffs it's just a shitty old cinema, everyone's going to be watching tv in a couple of years) through to the Gresham Rd slipway. I guess you could claim there'd be some progress - your motorway would be containing at least twice as many cars as CHL currently does, but then again since they'd be standing still the same amount it looks rather like a bad outcome - but maybe you disagree?

Does anyone support building the CHL motorway? Does anyone think that increasing capacity leads to smoothly flowing traffic? I keep asking.

As has been pointed out on earlier posts there appears to be more traffic on CHL.

I live on CHL and certain times of day its busy.

I do hope the Council are doing traffic studies to either show traffic is evaporating or main road like CHL has increased traffic displaced from LTNs.

All I'm asking at moment is for Council to do proper job of monitoring the LTNs over the temporary period.
 
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