editor
hiraethified
Anecdotally there does seem to be a fairly substantial increases in traffic on CHL, but no one can be sure unless the council is independently monitoring traffic levels and seeing if it is dropping off over time.
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
This is a more recent study on Walthamstow:
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Yep - I linked to the Fulham trial when I read about it. I was not all that convinced it was an appropriate compromise at the time. But done appropriately - and combined with other things such as smaller parking zones - I am beginning to think it might possibly be better.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Does anyone know what data is being collected?
And what was collected before implementation (specific to the LTNs)?
I thought I'd heard that pre-implementation data had not been collected because of the panic emergency?
(May have missed this info as this thread slightly does my head in and I avoided it for a while).
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co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
There's a big topic here but there's no simple positive relationship between car access and businesses doing well, in many ways it can be argued the opposite (e.g. the reason out-of-town shopping centres have historically done so well is because people loved not having to deal with cars, the environment was so much nicer). But the High St has been in steady decline for 10 years for a multitude of reasons and the idea that LTNs are the reason is impossible to stand up. One reason that they are blamed is that shopkeepers, i.e. petit-bourgeois small business men typically are also typical car-users and they over-estimate the number of their customers who use cars and overlook the numbers who walk or cycle.
There's some data here but it's pretty hard to nail exactly what makes people go where, too many variables except to say there's no simple relationship between cars and shopping, simple as that.
The council have put vehicle count devices on many of the roads where traffic had been displaced to. Seen them on Dulwich and water lane but there are probably others. Been lots of chatter about the problems at the Herne hill railway bridge. I do sympathise with car drivers if you are routed onto main roads but then they are full of roadworks, hardly helps traffic flow
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
But what do we do about somewhere like Herne Hill bridge? It's always been a problem, last improvement meant cutting a slice off the park so that they could make a left hand slip lane into Dulwich Rd, maybe we should build a new relief road across Brockwell Park from say the end of Croxted Rd, joining Dulwich Rd just by the Lido, that would cut all that traffic straight out of the Herne Hill junction.
Does anyone think that would solve the Herne Hill junction? Make it "flow smoothly"?
Or just ruin the bottom end of Brockwell Park and suck in more cars?
If the logic that limiting capacity just moves cars elsewhere is right then surely increasing capacity will create space elsewhere, right? Or am I missing something?
Does anyone think that would solve the Herne Hill junction? Make it "flow smoothly"?
Or just ruin the bottom end of Brockwell Park and suck in more cars?
If the logic that limiting capacity just moves cars elsewhere is right then surely increasing capacity will create space elsewhere, right? Or am I missing something?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
There's plenty of evidence for it.
But if you don't believe that decreasing road capacity decreases the amount of traffic that then uses it, you must believe that demand for road space essentially stays at a constant level regardless of how much road space is provided.
And if you believe that, then you must believe that simply increasing road capacity somewhat would solve all the congestion pollutions - rather than just encouraging more people to try and use them (which is what loads and loads of evidence shows is what happens).
This is why co-op keeps asking whether your proposed solution to congestion is to increase road capacity.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Not left or right.......
“We really need to discourage councils from their war against the motorist,” Leader of the House of Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg told parliament, September 17.
“We should be backing the motorist,” he continued. “Driving is a great sign of one’s independence, liberty and exercise of historic freedoms.”
“We really need to discourage councils from their war against the motorist,” Leader of the House of Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg told parliament, September 17.
“We should be backing the motorist,” he continued. “Driving is a great sign of one’s independence, liberty and exercise of historic freedoms.”
sparkybird
ask the bird...
I also heard that the council will be using sat nav data to determine traffic volumes pre and post. I have no idea how this works or how much they'll have to cough up to google etc
Rushy
basically a scrotum
That is slightly selective quoting. The same article is in various media and carries on:
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
That is a quote from Rees Mogg today, I didn't misquote him.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
I did not say that you misquoted Rees Mogg. As the article which you selectively quoted from goes on to say, Rees Mogg is arguing against current and recent Tory government policy, which is to reallocate road space to cyclists. It is clearly not the left / right issue you so desperately want it to be.
Well the proper way to do it (and I’m no highways expert) would be adjust the traffic light sequencing to better meet demand, so called smart traffic systems with cameras that react and prioritise accordingly. You could also adopt a pedestrian crossing like that at Oxford Circus where you can cross anywhere as all traffic is stopped. Probably cost a fortune. There’s got to be a role for technology
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
You say this is the "proper" way like it's a no-brainer, but what you're saying is you can increase capacity by using technology. But that increase will be marginal compared to the huge increase in capacity that you can get by building a new road - why not just do that? Like I say the obvious candidate to me seems to be Croxted Rd to Dulwich Rd across the park. Do you think that will solve the Herne Hill car problem (or any other one?).
Maybe do both?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I don't think I posted which article I got it from? Or indeed if I got it from an article at all.
New roads are horrendously expensive and routes have to be found. I’m not necessarily saying that you need to build more capacity for traffic only that by using technology (self driving cars anyone?) you can improve through flow but that could be for all modes of transport
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Come on. You know what you were trying to do Rees Mogg is well known Tory.
You were trying to link opposition to LTNs to the right
This line of attack has persisted in this thread.
As Rushy and previous posts have pointed out Councils are enacting the policy of the present Tory government on road use.
Its not simple right / left division.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
51% support their local Low Traffic Neighbourhood. 16% against.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
51% in support subject to a consultation process for individual schemes.
I would support them on that basis. As long as the consultation was genuine
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Ive been trying to find the actual poll. Can you post it up please. As I can't see it.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
I don't think I posted which article I got it from? Or indeed if I got it from an article at all.
You did not need to say which article it came from. I simply googled the entire extract you posted which, word for word, matches the opening paragraphs of one article. Either you selectively quoted from the original article. Or you uncritically regurgitated a Twitter or Facebook post from someone else who selectively quoted from the original article. Either way, the article from which your post borrowed Mogg's quotes immediately follows them with " However, the supposed “war against the motorist”—with pop-up cycleways, widened sidewalks and other measures aimed at encouraging active travel during the pandemic—is government policy. " i.e. the views expressed by Mogg are at odds with the actions of the government.
If you remain convinced that this proves that LTNs are a left / right issue, would you clarify which of the two you consider is the left - is it Mogg, or HM Government?
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sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
You just need to take back the comment that I selectively quoted something - you have no idea where I got it from. I couldn’t give a shit what your google search turned up.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering how much that will say.
People who use regular routes won't be using Sat Nav. So won't come up on the data.
LTNs may see rise in use of Sat Nav to work out way around.
So could end up with looking like more traffic volume as regular non sat nav users use it to work out way around the LTN.
Problem is the Council brought this in during pandemic.
Any results of Sat Nav use will be affected by how pandemic changes.
Could be that wfh will stay for next year,
"normal" road use will not come back for over a year.
As the LTNs were rushed in there was no benchmark of traffic evaluated before LTNs were implemented.
What Im saying is that even if Sat Nav data is used its not going to be conclusive.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So a different tack.
An individual who is a Tory does not like LTNs.
Tory government policy is to support these changes to road use.
Therefore this is not simple left or right issue.
You would agree with that?
Thanks for making it known that an individual who happens to be a Tory is against these LTNs
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I would say that the Tory party has a long tradition of backing motorists, remember thatcher and only losers take the bus?. The pandemic has forced the tories to do things they wouldn’t normally do, like the furlough scheme, and this.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
And it's left the nutters like Rees Mogg, on the right-libertarian fringe of the conservative party as the ones still banging on about the "war on the motorist". Because for them the car represents individual freedom.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about the present Tory government. Its led by Boris who built cycle lanes in London.
So your argument that a Tory would not do this does not hold.
It was City of London who pre Covid started to reduce traffic around the Bank junction.
What pandemic has done is accelerate some of these schemes.
For example I was hanging out in the City pre Covid and there was a City of London consultation going on about making the City more pedestrian friendly. As at that time a lot of people worked in the City. The idea being to make more parklets/ car free side roads for the City workers. Make it more pleasant space for those who worked there.
So things have moved on since Thatcher.
You selectively post a quote from old school Tory. This has you keep being told is not government policy.
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