Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Gramsci]

No not right wing. Yes it is bit of a Big Green Brother kind of thing. But its 'gentle' very gentle. None of the radical things I mentioned in my last post need to happen today or in a few months time. But lets think about how we are living. Low Traffic Neighbourhoods bring very great benefits to the majority of the population in urban areas. The minority of car owners are the short term losers. And ultimately it is agreed on a community level between you and your neighbours.

Well that is my issue with how they have been implemented. Its not been agreed at community level. As was promised pre pandemic.

 

[thebackrow]

This doesn't make any sense. The individualist response is the car. LTNs are all about encouraging use of communal resources and sharing them as equitably as possible.

Exactly. Mass private car ownership and the failure to penalise/sufficiently tax the externalities caused by their use is the about as tory 'no such thing as society' as you can get as a policy.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Well that is my issue with how they have been implemented. Its not been agreed at community level. As was promised pre pandemic.

The situation has changed with the pandemic. There was no consultation on masks either.

 

[Gramsci]

What I was refering to was the idea of a policy like LTNs being about forcing individual people to change their "lifestyles" , where they work etc.

If green economy is to be made in future it needs to be about giving people choice. Not just enacting a policy and pushing people to just deal with.

For example Im sure a lot of people could do without the daily commute. They could do with services, work and facilities to be near them.

That requires a change in the economy.

Take housing. Its difficult to live near work if one cannot afford to buy or rent in the area that work is. So rent controls need to be brought in. Developers need to be forced to build social housing as part of large developments.

I don't see any of that happening.

What I object to is putting the onus on individuals without giving them reasonable alternative choices.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What I was refering to was the idea of a policy like LTNs being about forcing individual people to change their "lifestyles" , where they work etc.

If green economy is to be made in future it needs to be about giving people choice. Not just enacting a policy and pushing people to just deal with.

For example Im sure a lot of people could do without the daily commute. They could do with services, work and facilities to be near them.

That requires a change in the economy.

Take housing. Its difficult to live near work if one cannot afford to buy or rent in the area that work is. So rent controls need to be brought in. Developers need to be forced to build social housing as part of large developments.

I don't see any of that happening.

What I object to is putting the onus on individuals without giving them reasonable alternative choices.

People are still free to make these choices, what it is about though is making one of those choices more difficult and that needs to be done because all of us suffer because of pollution.

 

[editor]

People are still free to make these choices, what it is about though is making one of those choices more difficult and that needs to be done because all of us suffer because of pollution.

It can be a tough call though when people have to swim against a tide of seductive advertising for bigger and 'safer' cars promising even more 'freedom,' influential bellends like Clarkson constantly making out non-car users are some sort of inferior species, and a lack of consultation and co ordination from the council coupled with overdue improvements to public transport.

 

[Southlondon]

What I was refering to was the idea of a policy like LTNs being about forcing individual people to change their "lifestyles" , where they work etc.

If green economy is to be made in future it needs to be about giving people choice. Not just enacting a policy and pushing people to just deal with.

For example Im sure a lot of people could do without the daily commute. They could do with services, work and facilities to be near them.

That requires a change in the economy.

Take housing. Its difficult to live near work if one cannot afford to buy or rent in the area that work is. So rent controls need to be brought in. Developers need to be forced to build social housing as part of large developments.

I don't see any of that happening.

What I object to is putting the onus on individuals without giving them reasonable alternative choices.

Absolutely right. With the state of our public transport where in rush hour commuters who spend thousands a year for season tickets To cram into train carriages to then squash into the tube trains to get to work, if you live in the suburbs why on earth wouldn’t you want to drive your car especially with the new Covid risk?
And absolutely right, people who live in the suburbs are not all stinking rich, in fact they look enviously at those of Us who live Within touching distance of central London and can manage their lives with a bicycle, but as you point out are forced to live further and further away from their place of work. With Covid if I lived in Medway for example I would drive if I could rather than risk the trains. The roads are not the sole preserve of the people that live in them like extensions to their front gardens they are throughfares and yes proper consultation should take place before changes are made but that consultation should also take into account the needs of local businesses in these horrendous times when so many were struggling before Covid never mind now, and yes, the needs of the people that use our roads to drive through in their way to work etc. People own and drive cars for many reasons, but they are not all rich inconsiderate petrol-heads. Disabled people, Needing to do the family shop with toddlers in tow, deliverY drivers, couriers, And people who work at dispersed sites. At present public transport does not provide an effective alternative. My friend bought his first house in Chatham as it was the closest place he could afford. He works in Southwark and his season ticket is around 6K a year. The trains are often late or cancelled and often he gets no seat, however he jumps in a car with a colleague and shares petrol costs. It’s cheaper, safer and he gets to work on time. This shouldn’t be the case but it is. With Covid and the need for vulnerable people To socially distance I am feeling a lot more sympathetic to car users. As for Lambeth council jumping in with ill thought out road closures etc, my cynical mind says Jack and Co are only too aware of how the greens are Chasing their tail in the south of the borough and are trying to create a facade of being a green minded council to nick a few votes of them. Politicians always make decisions with the next election in mind.

 

[Southlondon]

So what's your solution - to make local neighbourhoods more like Westfield, so that they are convenient for car drivers? We'll need to knock down quite a few houses to widen roads and provide all the parking - is that ok?

Or we accept that online ordering with local delivery is a much better solution for getting large/bulky items to people. And then the smaller things can be bought locally - and probably more locally than before.

I think you need to talk to small shop owners in our high streets and ask them how they feel about having lost a lot of passing trade with each measure taken to deter car drivers. And no don’t be daft I really can’t see it being viable Or desirable to convert Brixton or streatham to a new Westfield, however, until public transport can meet the needs of people who currently drive I wouldn’t cuss someone for wanting to drive and to have somewhere to park when they do. People drive cars for all sorts of reasons and bullying people Into giving them up while it is currently the safest way for a vulnerable person to travel and avoid exposure to Covid. Until there are viable alternatives they should be allowed to continue to drive to our local shopping streets and to be able to park when they get there

 

[technical]

One thing that bugs me about this argument is that seems to be forgotten that all these road closures are only temporary - the Council cannot implement them permanently as things stand. Which essentially makes the current arrangements an extended consultation period - let's see how it goes and take decisions based on evidence across several months rather than based on (IMHO) knee jerk reactions that have no basis in fact. If it doesn't work, or if there are unintended consequences that it's felt don't outweigh the benefits then fair enough scrap them. But we need to do something to address the issues that come with current levels of car use and to me this is a start.

 

[wurlycurly]

Absolutely right. With the state of our public transport where in rush hour commuters who spend thousands a year for season tickets To cram into train carriages to then squash into the tube trains to get to work, if you live in the suburbs why on earth wouldn’t you want to drive your car especially with the new Covid risk?
And absolutely right, people who live in the suburbs are not all stinking rich, in fact they look enviously at those of Us who live Within touching distance of central London and can manage their lives with a bicycle, but as you point out are forced to live further and further away from their place of work. With Covid if I lived in Medway for example I would drive if I could rather than risk the trains. The roads are not the sole preserve of the people that live in them like extensions to their front gardens they are throughfares and yes proper consultation should take place before changes are made but that consultation should also take into account the needs of local businesses in these horrendous times when so many were struggling before Covid never mind now, and yes, the needs of the people that use our roads to drive through in their way to work etc. People own and drive cars for many reasons, but they are not all rich inconsiderate petrol-heads. Disabled people, Needing to do the family shop with toddlers in tow, deliverY drivers, couriers, And people who work at dispersed sites. At present public transport does not provide an effective alternative. My friend bought his first house in Chatham as it was the closest place he could afford. He works in Southwark and his season ticket is around 6K a year. The trains are often late or cancelled and often he gets no seat, however he jumps in a car with a colleague and shares petrol costs. It’s cheaper, safer and he gets to work on time. This shouldn’t be the case but it is. With Covid and the need for vulnerable people To socially distance I am feeling a lot more sympathetic to car users. As for Lambeth council jumping in with ill thought out road closures etc, my cynical mind says Jack and Co are only too aware of how the greens are Chasing their tail in the south of the borough and are trying to create a facade of being a green minded council to nick a few votes of them. Politicians always make decisions with the next election in mind.

Most poor people do not own cars. LTNs create safer spaces for cycling, walking and scootering, the plan being to link LTNs London-wide to ease the pressure on public transport. That would be particularly handy during a winter wave of Covid, during flu season, when people are going to be justifiably reluctant to use buses, trains, tubes etc, for obvious reasons. Everybody piling into cars they don't own does not seem like the best solution.

 

[wurlycurly]

Edit

 

[sparkybird]

What I was refering to was the idea of a policy like LTNs being about forcing individual people to change their "lifestyles" , where they work etc.

If green economy is to be made in future it needs to be about giving people choice. Not just enacting a policy and pushing people to just deal with.

For example Im sure a lot of people could do without the daily commute. They could do with services, work and facilities to be near them.

That requires a change in the economy.

Take housing. Its difficult to live near work if one cannot afford to buy or rent in the area that work is. So rent controls need to be brought in. Developers need to be forced to build social housing as part of large developments.

I don't see any of that happening.

What I object to is putting the onus on individuals without giving them reasonable alternative choices.

Yes it would be great if the economy could be changed, rent controls brought in etc. But realistically that's not going to happen for a some little while, so back in the real world, what do we do? Nothing?
As individuals should we not make choices and changes for the good of society if we are able? Even if we are mildly inconvenienced? After all, my one less unnecessary car journey leaves more space on the road for those who have no choice but to drive (disabled people, delivery drivers, tradespeople etc) and means a little less pollution going into the lungs of the school kids in the playground.
I really feel people who can make changes cannot just sit back and do nothing. But most of them won't make changes until they are forced to. That's just human nature sadly

 

[Southlondon]

Most poor people do not own cars. LTNs create safer spaces for cycling, walking and scootering, the plan being to link LTNs London-wide to ease the pressure on public transport. That would be particularly handy during a winter wave of Covid, during flu season, when people are going to be justifiably reluctant to use buses, trains, tubes etc, for obvious reasons. Everybody piling into cars they don't own does not seem like the best solution.

Depending on how you define poor, I can assure you a lot of ordinary people on average pay or below own cars.

 

[Southlondon]

Yes it would be great if the economy could be changed, rent controls brought in etc. But realistically that's not going to happen for a some little while, so back in the real world, what do we do? Nothing?
As individuals should we not make choices and changes for the good of society if we are able? Even if we are mildly inconvenienced? After all, my one less unnecessary car journey leaves more space on the road for those who have no choice but to drive (disabled people, delivery drivers, tradespeople etc) and means a little less pollution going into the lungs of the school kids in the playground.
I really feel people who can make changes cannot just sit back and do nothing. But most of them won't make changes until they are forced to. That's just human nature sadly

Perhaps people make other changes as their contribution towards a new economy. I know people who drive cars who are fastidious when it comes to recycling or They are enthusiastically boasting about how they avoid fast fashion etc. End of the day the state of the environment is a byproduct of capitalism that demands ever increasing consumerism and that forces people to travel often great distances to get to work.. it’s the rich people that consume the most do I don’t see why anyone should expect the hard pressed working person to sacrifice what is at the Moment often their cheapest and safest mode of transport. I would hate to see commuters forced back onto the packed cattle trucks ( if they can afford the fares) during this Covid crisis. Talk to any business that relies on deliveries at the moment and ask them what they think about the continuous increases in costs and time to meet their customers demands. We are on the verge of a massive economic catastrophe, and anything that addd to business costs should be reconsidered. It’s like when people demand the closure of nuclear power stations. I’m anti-nuclear myself, but it’s easy for me to say close then down and replace them with alternatives, but then the unions have to remind the metropolitan Middle class CND crowd that they are talking about taking away people’s livelihoods. I see this crusade against cars in a similar light. Yes let’s phase private ownership of Petrol cars out Maybe but before doing that there have to be cost effective alternative means of transport, and our public transport is expensive, uncomfortable and often not a viable alternative to many ordinary people. People like my brother. 70 years old, drives an Old car he’s Owned since new. He is not disabled but he would struggle getting busses to his voluntary work, Picking up something from the shops or when he’s caring for his granddaughter . He is not a big consumer and it shouldn’t fall on him to make What would be a massive sacrifice, and during this time of Covid I feel a lot happier knowing he’s driving around than if he was bussing it or jumping on trains. To me it seems some people live in inner London Yet yearn for village life and traffic free streets. I moved in to this area because it was vibrant and exciting compared to the suburbs and moving close to major roads I sort of expected the traffic as part of the deal.

 

[wurlycurly]

Less than half of Lambeth households have access to a car. Your plan for people to self-isolate in cars needs a major rethink.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Absolutely right. With the state of our public transport where in rush hour commuters who spend thousands a year for season tickets To cram into train carriages to then squash into the tube trains to get to work, if you live in the suburbs why on earth wouldn’t you want to drive your car especially with the new Covid risk?
And absolutely right, people who live in the suburbs are not all stinking rich, in fact they look enviously at those of Us who live Within touching distance of central London and can manage their lives with a bicycle, but as you point out are forced to live further and further away from their place of work. With Covid if I lived in Medway for example I would drive if I could rather than risk the trains. The roads are not the sole preserve of the people that live in them like extensions to their front gardens they are throughfares and yes proper consultation should take place before changes are made but that consultation should also take into account the needs of local businesses in these horrendous times when so many were struggling before Covid never mind now, and yes, the needs of the people that use our roads to drive through in their way to work etc. People own and drive cars for many reasons, but they are not all rich inconsiderate petrol-heads. Disabled people, Needing to do the family shop with toddlers in tow, deliverY drivers, couriers, And people who work at dispersed sites. At present public transport does not provide an effective alternative. My friend bought his first house in Chatham as it was the closest place he could afford. He works in Southwark and his season ticket is around 6K a year. The trains are often late or cancelled and often he gets no seat, however he jumps in a car with a colleague and shares petrol costs. It’s cheaper, safer and he gets to work on time. This shouldn’t be the case but it is. With Covid and the need for vulnerable people To socially distance I am feeling a lot more sympathetic to car users. As for Lambeth council jumping in with ill thought out road closures etc, my cynical mind says Jack and Co are only too aware of how the greens are Chasing their tail in the south of the borough and are trying to create a facade of being a green minded council to nick a few votes of them. Politicians always make decisions with the next election in mind.

Pollution:
Long before the current crisis when LTNs weren't about and traffic could run free as a bird Brixton Road used up it's annual NO2 pollution limit in just five days. You're talking about adding to this when there's a global pandemic going on which targets the lungs.

Congestion:
London had bad traffic and congestion before the pandemic

Infrastructure:
In my office there are maybe 30 car park spaces for 300 people. A lot of offices have zero spaces.

I reckon if even 10% of the people who use public transport decided to drive it wouldn't work. Everyone just hopping in their car isn't an option, there has to be alternatives and things like LTNs, protected cycleways are this.

 

[Gramsci]

Yes it would be great if the economy could be changed, rent controls brought in etc. But realistically that's not going to happen for a some little while, so back in the real world, what do we do? Nothing?
As individuals should we not make choices and changes for the good of society if we are able? Even if we are mildly inconvenienced? After all, my one less unnecessary car journey leaves more space on the road for those who have no choice but to drive (disabled people, delivery drivers, tradespeople etc) and means a little less pollution going into the lungs of the school kids in the playground.
I really feel people who can make changes cannot just sit back and do nothing. But most of them won't make changes until they are forced to. That's just human nature sadly

So your view of human nature is that individuals only do things if forced to. That is an argument for an authoritarian state.

I really find the "real world" argument irritating.

Reminds me I read a sci fi novel a while back set in near future in where the rich live in Eco Towers and the poor make do as best they can.

A possible future green economy.

The Water Knife

Either there is a just transition to a green economy or an unjust one ( as in the scenerio in the sci fi novel) There is nothing about green politics that is essentially about social justice.

 

[Gramsci]

I really feel people who can make changes cannot just sit back and do nothing. But most of them won't make changes until they are forced to. That's just human nature sadly

So there is the common herd who need to be prodded into making changes and a minority who know what is best for them.

I dont see this as particularly progressive.

 

[sparkybird]

Perhaps people make other changes as their contribution towards a new economy. I know people who drive cars who are fastidious when it comes to recycling or They are enthusiastically boasting about how they avoid fast fashion etc. End of the day the state of the environment is a byproduct of capitalism that demands ever increasing consumerism and that forces people to travel often great distances to get to work.. it’s the rich people that consume the most do I don’t see why anyone should expect the hard pressed working person to sacrifice what is at the Moment often their cheapest and safest mode of transport. I would hate to see commuters forced back onto the packed cattle trucks ( if they can afford the fares) during this Covid crisis. Talk to any business that relies on deliveries at the moment and ask them what they think about the continuous increases in costs and time to meet their customers demands. We are on the verge of a massive economic catastrophe, and anything that addd to business costs should be reconsidered. It’s like when people demand the closure of nuclear power stations. I’m anti-nuclear myself, but it’s easy for me to say close then down and replace them with alternatives, but then the unions have to remind the metropolitan Middle class CND crowd that they are talking about taking away people’s livelihoods. I see this crusade against cars in a similar light. Yes let’s phase private ownership of Petrol cars out Maybe but before doing that there have to be cost effective alternative means of transport, and our public transport is expensive, uncomfortable and often not a viable alternative to many ordinary people. People like my brother. 70 years old, drives an Old car he’s Owned since new. He is not disabled but he would struggle getting busses to his voluntary work, Picking up something from the shops or when he’s caring for his granddaughter . He is not a big consumer and it shouldn’t fall on him to make What would be a massive sacrifice, and during this time of Covid I feel a lot happier knowing he’s driving around than if he was bussing it or jumping on trains. To me it seems some people live in inner London Yet yearn for village life and traffic free streets. I moved in to this area because it was vibrant and exciting compared to the suburbs and moving close to major roads I sort of expected the traffic as part of the deal.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that no-one should be allowed to drive a car - rather that when someone had to option and ability to use a non car form of transport, they could think about this instead and use the car only when it is necessary.
I'm sure many people would love to live in the countryside, where is there is pretty much zero public transport and a car is an essential. However, for the majority I would imagine, they have to be in or near a city for work. Why should they and their children be penalised for this and expected to put up with unnecessary traffic, accidents and pollution?

 

[Gramsci]

Pollution:
Long before the current crisis when LTNs weren't about and traffic could run free as a bird Brixton Road used up it's annual NO2 pollution limit in just five days. You're talking about adding to this when there's a global pandemic going on which targets the lungs.

I did not think Brixton road was included in the LTNs. Like my road Coldharbour lane its classified as a main road.

There are less people going into central London as home working is still the norm. Despite Boris.

If Boris had extended the furlong people would not feel made to commute.

Its not like a lot of people want to brave public transport when the virus is still around. Now furlong is ending if they dont lose their jobs they might have to travel one way or another. Its not Southlondon causing the problem its this government.

My partner tried to get the train from LJ today to work. Trains were cancelled. Same thing happened on way back. This is regular occurance.

What Southlondon is also saying is that public transport needs sorting out. Needs to be much cheaper. Needs to be reliable. I dont think this is unreasonable.

It requires, however, proper investment. Why it can appear to be not real world suggestion.

 

[sparkybird]

So your view of human nature is that individuals only do things if forced to. That is an argument for an authoritarian state.

I really find the "real world" argument irritating.

Reminds me I read a sci fi novel a while back set in near future in where the rich live in Eco Towers and the poor make do as best they can.

A possible future green economy.

The Water Knife

Either there is a just transition to a green economy or an unjust one ( as in the scenerio in the sci fi novel) There is nothing about green politics that is essentially about social justice.

Well, maybe our real worlds are just very different. I have friends and neighbours who will drive their cars rather than walk 10 minutes, which they are quite capable of doing. We've talked about this, they know my views and listened to my reasoning and even agreed that it would be better to not use a car for trips which don't require it, yet still they continue. Shall we just wait for them to change their habits?

I remember when it was legal to drive without a seatbelt. Would you rather the law had not been changed and we just waited for everyone to realise that it was probably better to wear one?? I'm genuinely struggling to understand how this is more progressive.

 

[Gramsci]

Well, maybe our real worlds are just very different. I have friends and neighbours who will drive their cars rather than walk 10 minutes, which they are quite capable of doing. We've talked about this, they know my views and listened to my reasoning and even agreed that it would be better to not use a car for trips which don't require it, yet still they continue. Shall we just wait for them to change their habits?

I remember when it was legal to drive without a seatbelt. Would you rather the law had not been changed and we just waited for everyone to realise that it was probably better to wear one?? I'm genuinely struggling to understand how this is more progressive.

What your were implying was my view of a just transition to a Green economy is not "real world".

My reply was that a possible future scenerio is change to green economy that still contains inequality. I do think that could happen.

Secondly during the lockdown i was doing a bit of volunteering at the Brixton Rec Food Hub ( food bank). So many people on furlong were volunteering that it was sometimes difficult to get shifts.

For many people the lockdown was an eye opener. Volunteering is "work" but not as it normally is. Talking to some of the volunteers and they liked working for the social good. Very different from normal "work". With all the pressures on one.

I think that given the oppurtunity people will do things not just for their personal selfish interests.

The last thirty years has tried to make people think that if you dont look after number one your a mug.

Basically I think social policy should be about giving people oppurtunities and space to do them. A positive social policy not a negative one.

 

[co-op]

Basically I think social policy should be about giving people oppurtunities and space to do them. A positive social policy not a negative one.

Right. And if you stop putting all your focus on car drivers you'd surely be able to acknowledge that LTNs - in a linked network - give ordinary people the opportunity and space to travel through Lambeth without being effectively forced to choose between the cost and inflexibility of public transport or the private car. You actually allow people to choose to cycle or to walk. This - for many - is currently barely an option. The commonest single reason for not cycling, or not letting your child cycle is "it's too dangerous". And even for the most serious advocate of building a greener, healthier, more congenial city, it's pretty hard to argue that's not true.

 

[Gramsci]

Right. And if you stop putting all your focus on car drivers you'd surely be able to acknowledge that LTNs - in a linked network - give ordinary people the opportunity and space to travel through Lambeth without being effectively forced to choose between the cost and inflexibility of public transport or the private car. You actually allow people to choose to cycle or to walk. This - for many - is currently barely an option. The commonest single reason for not cycling, or not letting your child cycle is "it's too dangerous". And even for the most serious advocate of building a greener, healthier, more congenial city, it's pretty hard to argue that's not true.

Im not a car owner.

I cycle or use publlc transport.

So please stop trying to make out Im part of the car lobby.

I don't need to repeat what Ive posted previously.

I keep on saying Im critically supportive.

There have been many posts here pointing out these LTNS are temporary.

They imo should be allowed to a length of time to so evidence can be gathered about their effect.

Then local communities should have right to amend, remove or keep them at a later stage.

 

[co-op]

Im not a car owner.

I cycle or use publlc transport.

So please stop trying to make out Im part of the car lobby.

De facto you are of the car lobby; LTNs are precisely the sort of thing that lets people safely cycle and walk through Lambeth. Since it's a zero-sum game here, that means cars lose some privileges.

You're supporting the restoration of those privileges and the re-relegation of cyclists (including those not confident, like you, to use the roads now) and pedestrians to the bottom of the pile.

 

[Gramsci]

De facto you are of the car lobby; LTNs are precisely the sort of thing that lets people safely cycle and walk through Lambeth. Since it's a zero-sum game here, that means cars lose some privileges.

You're supporting the restoration of those privileges and the re-relegation of cyclists (including those not confident, like you, to use the roads now) and pedestrians to the bottom of the pile.

I don't need to repeat what Ive posted previously.

I keep on saying Im critically supportive.

There have been many posts here pointing out these LTNS are temporary.

They imo should be allowed to a length of time so evidence can be gathered about their effect.

Then local communities should have right to amend, remove or keep them at a later stage.

Im actually getting put off LTNs by the way people like you go on.

However I will try to ignore it.

 

[Loose meat]

De facto you are of the car lobby; LTNs are precisely the sort of thing that lets people safely cycle and walk through Lambeth. Since it's a zero-sum game here, that means cars lose some privileges.

You're supporting the restoration of those privileges and the re-relegation of cyclists (including those not confident, like you, to use the roads now) and pedestrians to the bottom of the pile.

So ... how much do you think the LTN is worth to you - to the nearest £10K?

 

[co-op]

So ... how much do you think the LTN is worth to you - to the nearest £10K?

Precisely £0. What about you?

 

[sparkybird]

What your were implying was my view of a just transition to a Green economy is not "real world".

My reply was that a possible future scenerio is change to green economy that still contains inequality. I do think that could happen.

Secondly during the lockdown i was doing a bit of volunteering at the Brixton Rec Food Hub ( food bank). So many people on furlong were volunteering that it was sometimes difficult to get shifts.

For many people the lockdown was an eye opener. Volunteering is "work" but not as it normally is. Talking to some of the volunteers and they liked working for the social good. Very different from normal "work". With all the pressures on one.

I think that given the oppurtunity people will do things not just for their personal selfish interests.

The last thirty years has tried to make people think that if you dont look after number one your a mug.

Basically I think social policy should be about giving people oppurtunities and space to do them. A positive social policy not a negative one.

I sincerely hope you're right for the sake of the human race. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Not a Vet]

So ... how much do you think the LTN is worth to you - to the nearest £10K?

You are obsessed by house prices. Is it that you own a house and are worried that you can’t sell, lowers the price or what? I don’t own my house and frankly if you own your house in poets corner, it’s fairly academic if a LTN puts the prices up as they are our of reach of most people anyway