Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[thebackrow]

I felt like after a while the traffic on Leigham Court Road had settled down, and it didn't seem noticeably worse than before the LTN, and most of the times I'd been down the high road since the trial began, traffic seemed to be moving ok. The only major difference I noticed was that there was more traffic at the end of Gleneldon Road sometimes.

I know this is all anecdotal, but it didn't seem like the disaster it was being made out to be in the press, and it made the area much more peaceful. That said, I wasn't camping out on the high road at rush hour, so may have been missing all the chaos.

 

[teuchter]

I really liked the Streatham Wells scheme. It made it so much more peaceful walking along Valley Road towards the common, and just walking/cycling around the area in general. Was pretty disappointed to see it had been suspended, after wondering why there was so much traffic speeding around the area today. I hope it gets reinstated after the council sort out issues with buses, and the works to the high road are done.

Was it really that bad down the high road every day, or was it more a case of being particularly bad on some days? Some of the reporting of it seems like it could apply to the high road at any point in time (including prior to the LTN) if there were roadworks or an accident, and the images used in reporting the stories are just images of traffic, which the high road has always had.

I felt like after a while the traffic on Leigham Court Road had settled down, and it didn't seem noticeably worse than before the LTN, and most of the times I'd been down the high road since the trial began, traffic seemed to be moving ok. The only major difference I noticed was that there was more traffic at the end of Gleneldon Road sometimes.

I know this is all anecdotal, but it didn't seem like the disaster it was being made out to be in the press, and it made the area much more peaceful. That said, I wasn't camping out on the high road at rush hour, so may have been missing all the chaos.

What seems likely in terms of it getting reinstated? Would be pretty crap if that was the end of it entirely, as I think it had a lot going for it.

I reckon you need to harangue your councillors fairly intensively to make sure it gets reinstated.

 

[edcraw]

I really liked the Streatham Wells scheme. It made it so much more peaceful walking along Valley Road towards the common, and just walking/cycling around the area in general. Was pretty disappointed to see it had been suspended, after wondering why there was so much traffic speeding around the area today. I hope it gets reinstated after the council sort out issues with buses, and the works to the high road are done.

Was it really that bad down the high road every day, or was it more a case of being particularly bad on some days? Some of the reporting of it seems like it could apply to the high road at any point in time (including prior to the LTN) if there were roadworks or an accident, and the images used in reporting the stories are just images of traffic, which the high road has always had.

I felt like after a while the traffic on Leigham Court Road had settled down, and it didn't seem noticeably worse than before the LTN, and most of the times I'd been down the high road since the trial began, traffic seemed to be moving ok. The only major difference I noticed was that there was more traffic at the end of Gleneldon Road sometimes.

I know this is all anecdotal, but it didn't seem like the disaster it was being made out to be in the press, and it made the area much more peaceful. That said, I wasn't camping out on the high road at rush hour, so may have been missing all the chaos.

What seems likely in terms of it getting reinstated? Would be pretty crap if that was the end of it entirely, as I think it had a lot going for it.

The plan seems to be to reinstate it after the A23 cycle lane and bus priority measures are put into place. Think TfL reckons that would be about a year, though that seems ambitious.

 

[alex_]

It’s going to take another two months before the sat nav’s figure out it’s open again…

The scientist/engineer in me takes his hat off to lambeths commitment to real world a/b testing.

 

[PlasT]

Both sides use the tactic but screenshots of traffic from one moment in time don’t really prove much, especially one from a Sunday lunchtime.

Yes the A23 is always busy, but my anecdotal experience was that during the LTN traffic was worse more often, and when that it was bad it was very bad. Hence the too common occurrence of the bus network falling apart at morning and evening rush hour which has led to the suspension.

Hope the works sort it out but always going to struggle with the single lane section and other pinch points.

 

[Bus Stopped]

I really liked the Streatham Wells scheme. It made it so much more peaceful walking along Valley Road towards the common, and just walking/cycling around the area in general. Was pretty disappointed to see it had been suspended, after wondering why there was so much traffic speeding around the area today. I hope it gets reinstated after the council sort out issues with buses, and the works to the high road are done.

Was it really that bad down the high road every day, or was it more a case of being particularly bad on some days? Some of the reporting of it seems like it could apply to the high road at any point in time (including prior to the LTN) if there were roadworks or an accident, and the images used in reporting the stories are just images of traffic, which the high road has always had.

I felt like after a while the traffic on Leigham Court Road had settled down, and it didn't seem noticeably worse than before the LTN, and most of the times I'd been down the high road since the trial began, traffic seemed to be moving ok. The only major difference I noticed was that there was more traffic at the end of Gleneldon Road sometimes.

I know this is all anecdotal, but it didn't seem like the disaster it was being made out to be in the press, and it made the area much more peaceful. That said, I wasn't camping out on the high road at rush hour, so may have been missing all the chaos.

What seems likely in terms of it getting reinstated? Would be pretty crap if that was the end of it entirely, as I think it had a lot going for it.

As someone who commutes a lot on buses it had got significantly worse. LCR was a bit worse but had got better over time.

But the buses had got almost unusable and I ended up getting off and walking a lot of the time. Outside of commuting times there were no issues.

I really can’t work out why they scrapped the whole scheme. They could have just opened up Valley Road and maybe even just done it during rush hours.

 

[Professor_Frink]

I reckon you need to harangue your councillors fairly intensively to make sure it gets reinstated.

Yeah. Seems like the way to go with it really. I'm hoping there may be a lot of people in the area who also miss the peace and quiet, and that the council realises there's more support for it than they thought there was. Pure speculation though.

 

[Professor_Frink]

As someone who commutes a lot on buses it had got significantly worse. LCR was a bit worse but had got better over time.

But the buses had got almost unusable and I ended up getting off and walking a lot of the time. Outside of commuting times there were no issues.

I really can’t work out why they scrapped the whole scheme. They could have just opened up Valley Road and maybe even just done it during rush hours.

Ah, that does sound annoying. Hopefully if it makes a comeback they will give more priority to easing the flow of buses. I enjoyed the peace and quiet within the area, but appreciate that lots of people had a different experience of it.

Yeah, it's a shame they couldn't come up with a more flexible solution, or figured out how to ease some of the pinch points onto the high road a bit better. I think it had become a little bit of a political hot potato with the mayoral elections coming up.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Ah, that does sound annoying. Hopefully if it makes a comeback they will give more priority to easing the flow of buses. I enjoyed the peace and quiet within the area, but appreciate that lots of people had a different experience of it.

Yeah, it's a shame they couldn't come up with a more flexible solution, or figured out how to ease some of the pinch points onto the high road a bit better. I think it had become a little bit of a political hot potato with the mayoral elections coming up.

I hope they can solve the issues with the buses. There have been some great suggestions on this thread. I can’t see any reason they can’t bring it back with a bit of imagination.

 

[alex_]

I really can’t work out why they scrapped the whole scheme. They could have just opened up Valley Road and maybe even just done it during rush hours.

Open up the LTN during rush hour?

Perhaps call it a HTN ?

Alex

 

[Bus Stopped]

Open up the LTN during rush hour?

Perhaps call it a HTN ?

Alex

As a short term measure while the high street is sorted out I think it was worth a try rather than scrapping it entirely.

 

[sparkybird]

As a short term measure while the high street is sorted out I think it was worth a try rather than scrapping it entirely.

One of the problems of doing this is that you can't have infrastructure for a low traffic neighbourhood and then push high traffic though it. This has become apparent over the last few days since the LTN was suspended. The 315 bus has already crashed into one of the planters as it tried to avoid incoming traffic ( which wasn't there before). The pedestrian island on Gleneldon Road at the junction with Valley was removed as it had no purpose anymore, now leaving pedestrians really exposed at that point. The mini roundabout at that same junction has technically gone, but it's really unclear if it's now reverted back to a T junction. I saw a very close call at the weekend, 1 driver assuming it was a T junction, another that it was a roundabout.
And saddest of all a group of kids trying to cycle along Valley Road, obviously not having got the memo that they should not be attempting this anymore.
Plus if it's a part time high/low traffic neighbourhood drivers will be even more confused about when they can/can't drive through.
The suspension of the Streatham Wells LTN has been handled shambolically by Lambeth, typical knee jerk reaction with no thought or planning for the consequences or safety of drivers, cyclists, pedestrians or bus passengers.

 

[sparkybird]

Yeah. Seems like the way to go with it really. I'm hoping there may be a lot of people in the area who also miss the peace and quiet, and that the council realises there's more support for it than they thought there was. Pure speculation though.

Professor_Frink
Sorry to hear you're missing the low traffic neighbourhood. There are many people in the area who feel like you. A group of neighbours set up Liveable Streatham Wells and have been active for over 6 years campaigning and making improvements in the neighborhood (not just LTN related). You'd be very welcome to join

Streatham Wells low traffic neighbourhood

Streaham Wells Low traffic neighbourhood

www.liveablestreathamwells.com

 

[Bus Stopped]

One of the problems of doing this is that you can't have infrastructure for a low traffic neighbourhood and then push high traffic though it. This has become apparent over the last few days since the LTN was suspended. The 315 bus has already crashed into one of the planters as it tried to avoid incoming traffic ( which wasn't there before). The pedestrian island on Gleneldon Road at the junction with Valley was removed as it had no purpose anymore, now leaving pedestrians really exposed at that point. The mini roundabout at that same junction has technically gone, but it's really unclear if it's now reverted back to a T junction. I saw a very close call at the weekend, 1 driver assuming it was a T junction, another that it was a roundabout.
And saddest of all a group of kids trying to cycle along Valley Road, obviously not having got the memo that they should not be attempting this anymore.
Plus if it's a part time high/low traffic neighbourhood drivers will be even more confused about when they can/can't drive through.
The suspension of the Streatham Wells LTN has been handled shambolically by Lambeth, typical knee jerk reaction with no thought or planning for the consequences or safety of drivers, cyclists, pedestrians or bus passengers.

Fair enough and yes what you’ve said makes total sense.

Despite my issue with the buses there is a sadness about how it’s all unravelled.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Hopton Road is transformed this morning, barely a car there, where as round the school section it was constant traffic jams in the morning. It did make me think how Valley Road must now be facing that again. I think I said before but you see photos of the 1920s and how our residential streets are social spaces. Even LTNs don’t quite do that as cars mean kids can’t play in the road but it is still a big improvement in that regard.

It’s also made me want it back even more if the improvements can be made.

One further suggestion is that only one bus lane is needed in the narrow bit of the high street. The buses going northward in the morning were never an issue. It was only southbound in the evening. So that must be less difficult? And have a bus filter at the lights.

The issues in the morning were Hopton Road, Streatham common south side, and traffic coming in from Norbury. I guess Hopton could be blocked off at the high street end in the morning (like some school roads have), and that would avoid anti social stuff in the evening.

I’m less sure what can be done with the buses going down Greyhound Lane as don’t know the area as well.

It will mean a lot of car jams both north and south bound whatever is done, and my only issue with that is the added pollution for people on the main roads. But overall I think there would be more benefits than negatives. I also think Lambeth should rethink the blue badge policy for LTNs.

 

[Smick]

Both sides use the tactic but screenshots of traffic from one moment in time don’t really prove much, especially one from a Sunday lunchtime.

Yes the A23 is always busy, but my anecdotal experience was that during the LTN traffic was worse more often, and when that it was bad it was very bad. Hence the too common occurrence of the bus network falling apart at morning and evening rush hour which has led to the suspension.

Hope the works sort it out but always going to struggle with the single lane section and other pinch points.

Someone called it out on twitter, and got the cause right in my mind, although how he phrased his tweet, and his proposed solution, gave easy ammunition to dismiss his entire point.

The entrance and exit to Valley Road is only through Sunnyhill and Prentis, for people who would previously have left onto Streatham Common North or Leigham Court Road. It was easier to get out from Sunnyhill or Pinfold than it was to enter that stretch from the cinema. This increased the number of cars exiting those roads onto the single lane stretch between the cinema and St Leonard's junction, which delayed everything attempting to enter that stretch of road, and then had knock on impacts all the way back to Streatham Hill.

If that stretch of road had a bus lane, I think the changes in bus times pre and post LTN would have been negligible.

I still think there is the potential to put in a bus lane southbound while keeping the northbound single lane while maintaining the existing footpath.

 

[Professor_Frink]

I'd be really interested to know what changes in particular pushed Streatham High Road over the edge. I was reading through this blog post BusAndTrainUser Verify and south bound at least it seems to be an issue with cars pulling out onto the high road at Sunnyhill and Pinfold Road, and potentially Prentis Road, and then further down there seems to be more traffic at the lights at Stanthorpe Road, although that should clear more easily as there's a box junction and light phasings.

If the only entry onto the high road at the particularly bottlenecked section (from the Odeon down to Aldi) was via Pendennis Road and Stanthorpe Road only (where there are traffic lights), and other roads were made one way and left turn from the high road only at their entry points, I wonder if that would have made things a little bit better. I think it would mean the gate at the end of Valley Road would need to go, but you'd most likely get fewer rat runners on the road overall, as you couldn't pass through the entire length of the road, and it would be such a faff going down Valley and coming out at Pendennis that I imagine drivers would just carry on Leigham Court Road or go via the High Road.

 

[Smick]

I'd be really interested to know what changes in particular pushed Streatham High Road over the edge. I was reading through this blog post BusAndTrainUser Verify and south bound at least it seems to be an issue with cars pulling out onto the high road at Sunnyhill and Pinfold Road, and potentially Prentis Road, and then further down there seems to be more traffic at the lights at Stanthorpe Road, although that should clear more easily as there's a box junction and light phasings.

If the only entry onto the high road at the particularly bottlenecked section (from the Odeon down to Aldi) was via Pendennis Road and Stanthorpe Road only (where there are traffic lights), and other roads were made one way and left turn from the high road only at their entry points, I wonder if that would have made things a little bit better. I think it would mean the gate at the end of Valley Road would need to go, but you'd most likely get fewer rat runners on the road overall, as you couldn't pass through the entire length of the road, and it would be such a faff going down Valley and coming out at Pendennis that I imagine drivers would just carry on Leigham Court Road or go via the High Road.

I’m not sure how ‘smart’ traffic ligjts are, but I think that if Stanthorpe and Pendennis were the only routes out, and could prioritise the high road at times of high traffic, it would have made a massive difference.

It might need the Gleneldon Road filter to be opened up though.

The fact is, our council didn’t even consider public transport impacts or improvements, traffic light timing, impact on other roads. They usually responded with “that’s TfL’s problem, not ours”, until the boss of TfL, Sadiq Khan, stepped in and told them that it actually is their problem.

If the council had properly, and intelligently, implemented the Streatham Wells LTN, it would still be active.

Now everyone is pissed off.

 

[Crispy]

I was reading through this blog post BusAndTrainUser Verify and south bound at least it seems to be an issue with cars pulling out onto the high road

This is excellent and explains the issues very well. Basically, any exit from the LTN on the narrow section of the high street needs to either be traffic light controlled, or blocked off entirely.

 

[sparkybird]

I'd be really interested to know what changes in particular pushed Streatham High Road over the edge. I was reading through this blog post BusAndTrainUser Verify and south bound at least it seems to be an issue with cars pulling out onto the high road at Sunnyhill and Pinfold Road, and potentially Prentis Road, and then further down there seems to be more traffic at the lights at Stanthorpe Road, although that should clear more easily as there's a box junction and light phasings.

If the only entry onto the high road at the particularly bottlenecked section (from the Odeon down to Aldi) was via Pendennis Road and Stanthorpe Road only (where there are traffic lights), and other roads were made one way and left turn from the high road only at their entry points, I wonder if that would have made things a little bit better. I think it would mean the gate at the end of Valley Road would need to go, but you'd most likely get fewer rat runners on the road overall, as you couldn't pass through the entire length of the road, and it would be such a faff going down Valley and coming out at Pendennis that I imagine drivers would just carry on Leigham Court Road or go via the High Road.

I have my suspicions that the gas works at Locks Lane in Mitcham were sending extra volumes along the A23. They finished a few days before the low traffic neighbourhood was suspended and things did look to be improving. If it was JUST the LTN that was causing the problems, it would have been gridlock from the early days. Unfortunately there is never an easy answer and I suspect multiple factors are in play.
In July the road works to repair the gas pipe on the other carriageway will start at Locks Lane- so it will be interesting to see the impact on A23 again.

 

[edcraw]

Appreciate its the first weekday but unsurprisingly suspending the LTN hasn’t miraculously fixed the buses.

 

[sparkybird]

Appreciate its the first weekday but unsurprisingly suspending the LTN hasn’t miraculously fixed the buses.

And a number are being diverted up Leigham Court Road....

 

[TopCat]

Bus Stopped how were the buses this evening? It looked a bit better, but I was only walking.

The buses are still fucked along Streatham High Road. Loads of delays, curtailments, incensed passengers.

 

[Crispy]

I still think there is the potential to put in a bus lane southbound while keeping the northbound single lane while maintaining the existing footpath.

There totally is. In fact there could be bus lanes in both directions for some of it. You'd have to get rid of the crossing islands at the lights, so green man timings would need to be extended.

(Source: measured off the high detail ordnance survey map)

 

[Professor_Frink]

I’m not sure how ‘smart’ traffic ligjts are, but I think that if Stanthorpe and Pendennis were the only routes out, and could prioritise the high road at times of high traffic, it would have made a massive difference.

It might need the Gleneldon Road filter to be opened up though.

The fact is, our council didn’t even consider public transport impacts or improvements, traffic light timing, impact on other roads. They usually responded with “that’s TfL’s problem, not ours”, until the boss of TfL, Sadiq Khan, stepped in and told them that it actually is their problem.

If the council had properly, and intelligently, implemented the Streatham Wells LTN, it would still be active.

Now everyone is pissed off.

Definitely. There must be some smart traffic lights solutions that can help ease the flow of traffic and prioritise the high road. I think that a release valve onto/out of Valley Road would be needed from the Leigham Court Road side, but maybe it could just be at certain times of the day. I imagine most of the worst of the internal traffic that didn't get displaced is related to people taking their kids to school, but that's just a guess. They could have changed the light phasings at the ends of Valley Road as well to improve the flow on Leigham Court Road and Streatham Common North.

The thing with the Valley Road traffic seems to be that it mostly goes straight over or comes straight over from Leigham Vale. I'm guessing it comes off the South Circular and then drivers use it as a way to completely avoid the bottlenecked bit of the high road and West Norwood High Street. There's some traffic that's materialised again at the end of Leigham Vale that hadn't been there for months. I don't get why that traffic wouldn't still go up Leigham Court Road and then down Streatham Common North. It's a similar journey. I wonder whether it's some weird satnav algorithm thing.

Anyway, am rambling now, but completely agree that the council should have taken a more joined up approach with TfL, but I guess at least it may have inadvertently kick-started some much needed improvements to the high road (which hopefully actually happen).

 

[Professor_Frink]

I have my suspicions that the gas works at Locks Lane in Mitcham were sending extra volumes along the A23. They finished a few days before the low traffic neighbourhood was suspended and things did look to be improving. If it was JUST the LTN that was causing the problems, it would have been gridlock from the early days. Unfortunately there is never an easy answer and I suspect multiple factors are in play.
In July the road works to repair the gas pipe on the other carriageway will start at Locks Lane- so it will be interesting to see the impact on A23 again.

Ah interesting. Will be intriguing to see what happens in July then. It seems like it's been an unlucky time to implement it. Thames Water have dug up Leigham Court Road a few times as well, and then with these gas works, and the tories deciding to use LTNs and ULEZ as a wedge issue, it's all seems like it's been a real sticky wicket.

 

[Smick]

Definitely. There must be some smart traffic lights solutions that can help ease the flow of traffic and prioritise the high road. I think that a release valve onto/out of Valley Road would be needed from the Leigham Court Road side, but maybe it could just be at certain times of the day. I imagine most of the worst of the internal traffic that didn't get displaced is related to people taking their kids to school, but that's just a guess. They could have changed the light phasings at the ends of Valley Road as well to improve the flow on Leigham Court Road and Streatham Common North.

The thing with the Valley Road traffic seems to be that it mostly goes straight over or comes straight over from Leigham Vale. I'm guessing it comes off the South Circular and then drivers use it as a way to completely avoid the bottlenecked bit of the high road and West Norwood High Street. There's some traffic that's materialised again at the end of Leigham Vale that hadn't been there for months. I don't get why that traffic wouldn't still go up Leigham Court Road and then down Streatham Common North. It's a similar journey. I wonder whether it's some weird satnav algorithm thing.

Anyway, am rambling now, but completely agree that the council should have taken a more joined up approach with TfL, but I guess at least it may have inadvertently kick-started some much needed improvements to the high road (which hopefully actually happen).

Another big question is why they needed to put two filters in on Valley Road. One at Leigham Court and the other two thirds of the way up.

If they had just put one bang in the middle, even between Sunnyhill and Wellfield, then they would have stopped through traffic, but given Valley Road residents two choices to leave the LTN and reduced that traffic leaving Sunnyhill and Pinfold onto the High Road.

 

[sparkybird]

Another big question is why they needed to put two filters in on Valley Road. One at Leigham Court and the other two thirds of the way up.

If they had just put one bang in the middle, even between Sunnyhill and Wellfield, then they would have stopped through traffic, but given Valley Road residents two choices to leave the LTN and reduced that traffic leaving Sunnyhill and Pinfold onto the High Road.

The LCR filter was originally planned to be just outside the surgery. I think it should have been left there. Unfortunately a single filter where you suggest would still leave Valley/Sunnyhill and Valley/wellfield/Sunnyhill open to shortcuts. Plus given what we have seen drivers resort to to save 5 mins, the 'through' route of Valley Road would still be effectively open via Sunnyhill and Wellfield. Which would have been chaos. It's not easy trying to outwit the sat navs!

 

[Smick]

It's not easy trying to outwit the sat navs!

Lambeth have definitely proven that. Or trying to outwit anything else, for that matter.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Is there a reason for why suspending the Streatham Wells LTN would make the traffic down New Park Road (from Brixton Hill to the south circular) a nightmare again?