Bus Stopped
Active Member
What?? I’ve said I want less cars. And want a state owned huge zip car operation as I don’t think people need to own their own car.
Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
What?? I’ve said I want less cars. And want a state owned huge zip car operation as I don’t think people need to own their own car.
editor
hiraethified
This article has now accrued over 70 comments, and I rather enjoyed the extra hyperbolic drama of the username 'Unlawfully caged resident.'
Has a whiff of the covid conspiracy freeman of the land oppressed masses.
Has a whiff of the covid conspiracy freeman of the land oppressed masses.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
The nature of public transport is that the routes with the greatest demand are the ones that get the most direct service. You'll always be able to find some origin-destination that isn't useful to a lot of people and takes a disproportionate amount of time. And the nature of London is that the best public transport routes are all radial - it's much easier to go towards or away from the centre than it is to go across south London.
Various friends I visit frequently where it would be quicker to drive than public transport.
Over towards Dawsons Hill (southern end of Lordship Lane) - usually 50 minutes + by bus. Currently 25 by car. 20 by bike.
Another down towards Sydenham - 66minutes by bus, 30 by car, 30 by bike.
Your Streatham to Bromley trip is currently 50 minutes by car (and thats starting from east of the Streatham LTNs). It's the same by bike (nearly 9 miles) and wouldn't be hard on an ebike but I'm pretty sure it would be a hugely unpleasant ride going by my experiences in that part of London. But it doesn't have to be that way. The ride to see my friends in Dulwich used to be horrible, especially coming back late at night. But it's now pretty much all through LTNs and it's a lovely way to end an evening.
For sure, not everyone can cycle every trip, but a hell of a lot of trips that get driven in London because they're a bit quicker that PT, or just out of habit, absolutely could be cycled by a lot more people if the conditions were right.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Pretty much anywhere. As an experiment I thought I'd put in the two most car centric places I can think of in 'central-ish' London - the two Westfield Shopping centres. Shopping Malls built with a load of parking (but both also with excellent public transport links). Right now it's 'about an hour' to get to either of them by car, public transport or bike. I wouldn't even think about driving to either of them, but I bet a lot of car centric people do
Make the trip at 10am on a Saturday morning and the public transport and bike stay the same but the car trip drops to 35 minutes (but google thinks there are times it might take 1 hour 50 to come back on a Saturday afternoon)
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thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
This one lets you put in driving and cycling as well (no idea how it allows for different times of day so I'd assume it's off peak only)
I'm also intrigued by the geographic TfL tube/train line map. it makes South London look like much less of a PT desert than it appears from the standard map
There are definitely big areas of North London where east west travel looks worse than south of the river
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Unfortunately the history of south london's railways means that they are actually also all rather arranged around getting into/out of town instead of across it. It looks like they in more of a grid format but in many cases where the lines cross at right angles they were built by different companies heading for different terminii and don't really connect well with each other (streatham is a good example; there's not a station that you can use to access or change between all of the routes that cross each other). Additionally they are still mostly operated by rail franchises whose main focus is getting people in and out of london.
There was some talk a while ago about TfL taking over all the south london "metro" routes to try and get them working more coherently as a network for travel throughout south london.
There was some talk a while ago about TfL taking over all the south london "metro" routes to try and get them working more coherently as a network for travel throughout south london.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
There is no point denying what the journey I described means. There and back it’s 1 hour 5 minutes vs 2 hours 30 minutes. I know because I do it all the time. And there is no way I’m taking my daughter on a bike in London given nearly everyone I know who regularly cycles has had serious injuries.
But what would change things is better public transport. I find it bizarre that this is even questioned. There clearly could be much better east to west public transport.
LTNs are a different matter. If they work good, if they cause huge traffic jams and hold up buses, not good.
I do find this whole debate gets polarised and you have obnoxious contributions (that isn’t aimed at you!). On one hand the right wing tossers with their 4x4s types. Who are the worst. On the other middle class types who deride how some working class people need cars. And while rightly pointing out that cars are a privilege, ignoring their own privileges. Such as one of our Lambeth councillors who lives in a lovely house worth over a million. But to be fair the Tory anti LTN types are worst.
But there seems no room for balanced debate. It’s either for or against. The sad thing is that LTNs aren’t nearly radical enough and have been marginal in their impact.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
The thing is that LTNs are a stepping stone towards more radical changes. And giving in to the resistance to them chucks that stepping stone away. That's while you'll find people who've spent years or decades campaigning for better transport, defending them quite vigourously even though, yes, there are limits to what LTNs can achieve on their own.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
You’re right on the polarised debate. Those who want safer cycling deal with people on the one hand saying nothing needs to change and on the other people saying it’s so dangerous they’d never cycle.
Better public transport isn’t something I’m going to argue is a bad idea but how to do that is a whole different question - other than (hugely expensive) tube lines, anything you do is going to take space that's currently used by private cars. Doing that is going to, using the language used to criticise LTNs, cause huge traffic jams, displaced traffic, 'make lives impossible', be a 'war on the motorist',
The anti-LTN crew in Lewisham thinks a tram on the south circular is the alternative answer. That's would cause massive displacement of traffic - how would a tram not get delayed on all the single lane sections of the A205 unless the other traffic was directed through other (smaller) local streets? And it wouldn't make my trip to Dawsons Hill any quicker because it still wouldn't be door to door - 20 minute walk to a stop on the A205 (walking to Brixton Hill and getting a bus doesn't save any time). 5 minute wait for a tram? 10 minute walk at the other end. The tram would still be slower than driving off peak on the same road as it's got to stop for passengers. Suddenly it's not going to actually be any quicker than taking the bus is now.
In outer London the Superloop express buses might help. But it's probably still going to take you 30 minutes to get the train to Croydon and then an express bus from there to Bromley and likely a local bus to your final destination. Again, probably not that different to your current public transport trip - it might shave off 10 minutes or so but unlikely more.
The Superloop: connecting outer London boroughs, more quickly
The Superloop is part of the Mayor's plan to improve outer London's bus network, connecting outer London boroughs, faster.
www.london.gov.uk
You've mentioned surge pricing above - now some form of variable charging for road use would absolutely reduce private traffic. But the response to ULEZ would be nothing compared to that for road pricing set high enough to actually discourage car trips. It's simply not possible to completely overhaul public transport BEFORE reducing car traffic - as you need to get rid of a load of the cars to speed up the buses.
A question for you - how much would the cost of your driven trip to Bromley have to be before you would use public transport instead?
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Bus Stopped
Active Member
The polarised debate about LTNs that you have mentioned isn’t what I was referring to. I cycle as an adult but wouldn’t put my daughter at that risk. Of course cycling needs to be made safer. And it’s one of the benefits of an LTN. That doesn’t mean all LTNs are good.You’re right on the polarised debate. Those who want safer cycling deal with people on the one hand saying nothing needs to change and on the other people saying it’s so dangerous they’d never cycle.
Better public transport isn’t something I’m going to argue is a bad idea but how to do that is a whole different question - other than (hugely expensive) tube lines, anything you do is going to take space that's currently used by private cars. Doing that is going to, using the language used to criticise LTNs, cause huge traffic jams, displaced traffic, 'make lives impossible', be a 'war on the motorist',
The anti-LTN crew in Lewisham thinks a tram on the south circular is the alternative answer. That's would cause massive displacement of traffic - how would a tram not get delayed on all the single lane sections of the A205 unless the other traffic was directed through other (smaller) local streets? And it wouldn't make my trip to Dawsons Hill any quicker because it still wouldn't be door to door - 20 minute walk to a stop on the A205 (walking to Brixton Hill and getting a bus doesn't save any time). 5 minute wait for a tram? 10 minute walk at the other end. The tram would still be slower than driving off peak on the same road as it's got to stop for passengers. Suddenly it's not going to actually be any quicker than taking the bus is now.
In outer London the Superloop express buses might help. But it's probably still going to take you 30 minutes to get the train to Croydon and then an express bus from there to Bromley and likely a local bus to your final destination. Again, probably not that different to your current public transport trip - it might shave off 10 minutes or so but unlikely more.
View attachment 403316The Superloop: connecting outer London boroughs, more quickly
The Superloop is part of the Mayor's plan to improve outer London's bus network, connecting outer London boroughs, faster.
You've mentioned surge pricing above - now some form of variable charging for road use would absolutely reduce private traffic. But the response to ULEZ would be nothing compared to that for road pricing set high enough to actually discourage car trips. It's simply not possible to completely overhaul public transport BEFORE reducing car traffic - as you need to get rid of a load of the cars to speed up the buses.
A question for you - how much would the cost of your driven trip to Bromley have to be before you would use public transport instead?
It’s not about the price (well within reason!). I want my daughter to see her grandparents and at the moment it’s not feasible by public transport. More direct bus services could significantly reduce the journey. And more buses won’t significantly impact traffic.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
That’s a fair point. But I think there is a risk that if LTNs are defended no matter how badly thought out they are and no matter how bad the impact, there is a risk that will back fire.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I wouldn't defend one that I thought was really badly thought out. But I will defend them against accusations that they aren't working in the weeks/months immediately after implementation because there are often problems post implementation that do settle down over time, with or without the help of some adjustments to the scheme. We've watched it happen with most of the other ones.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Even a direct bus is never going to compete with your car for journey time. Your trip is about the same length as the 37 bus route (Putney to Peckham). At rush hour (according to google) that takes 55 minutes by car and nearly 90 by bus. And thats from bus stop to bus stop - public transport it never going to be door to door, so you might have to add 10 minutes walk to either end?
How much longer than a car trip would you tolerate a public transport trip taking?
How much would it have to cost you to drive before you'd use public transport instead of driving now?
I'm interested in what your price and time sensitivity is. It's not an attack on you personally but I've seen lots of people talk about 'better public transport' as the 'answer'. the reality is that public transport is almost always going to be slower (even if it's just the walk to the bus stop and wait for the bus that's likely an extra 20 minutes on a trip) so that people won't get out of their cars unless you make driving a lot more difficult (ie slower) or much more expensive.
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Bus Stopped
Active Member
That’s fair enough. And despite my frustration I should give it 2-3 months.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
If the journey was 50 minutes each way, instead of 1 hour 15 minutes I could do it. It would mean we still had a decent amount of time at my parents. And given it’s an hour and 15 minutes with 2-3 changes I don’t think it’s impossible to knock 25 minutes off? Even 55 minutes might be ok.
I generally do use public transport now, I get a bus to work. If it got too expensive I guess I would prioritise certain trips (such as my parents), and get an Uber or Zip car.
No problem at all, what you’re asking isn’t a personal attack.
At the end of the day we are going to have to drastically cut car use. Even electric cars have environmental impacts (although obviously not nearly as bad). I genuinely can’t see why people have to own their own car and we can’t all share them. Zip cars show it can work and the government could do it on a vast scale.
When you see photos of streets in the 1920s, leaving aside the grim poverty, they look like far more social places. Or town centres in many southern European cities.
Also if we don’t stop car use and fundamentally restructure society then the inconvenience we will face now will pale into insignificance compared to the devastation the world will face.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Taking my 37 bus example you're just not going to get that. similar distance, direct bus (but stopping). Even at 5am in the morning it's an hour on the bus plus the walk time to/from the bus stops (when it's 30 minutes by car on the same route). The only way to make the bus quicker is fewer stops (the Superloop idea) but that's less convenient in other ways - you've got to get to one of those stops and the buses are going to be less frequent.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I don’t think you’re right. I just dropped a pin at Bromley Town Hall. Almost exactly the same distance and it’s two buses but far more direct route. It’s currently saying 54 minutes and that’s including the walking.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I looked at the timings for that Streatham/Bromley journey the other day. There's one option which just involved one change between buses - at East Croydon. The route was not really a roundabout one if you looked at it on the map. Looking at the actual journey time whilst on the buses - one leg was 20 minutes and one was 23 minutes. This was google's reckon, late at night. So that means that if there happened to be a direct bus between the start and end points, about 43 minutes is the best you could hope for.
But even with limitless funding ... it's not like you can just add an infinite number of new bus routes to south London, such that every possible journey would have a direct bus running every 5 minutes. You'd just end up with a replication of the problem that everyone having a private car results in. All the streets would be filled with buses stuck in queues.
This is why it really isn't as simple as saying that public transport can be improved just by adding more routes. It's inevitable that public transport is never going to match the convenience of the ideal car journey. But of course you get all sorts of other benefits that outweigh the compromise that's needed on the single factor of "journey time".
The experience of using buses can certainly be improved by things like making sure interchanges are convenient, having priority lanes and so on. Achieving most of these improvements means reclaiming space from private cars.
But even with limitless funding ... it's not like you can just add an infinite number of new bus routes to south London, such that every possible journey would have a direct bus running every 5 minutes. You'd just end up with a replication of the problem that everyone having a private car results in. All the streets would be filled with buses stuck in queues.
This is why it really isn't as simple as saying that public transport can be improved just by adding more routes. It's inevitable that public transport is never going to match the convenience of the ideal car journey. But of course you get all sorts of other benefits that outweigh the compromise that's needed on the single factor of "journey time".
The experience of using buses can certainly be improved by things like making sure interchanges are convenient, having priority lanes and so on. Achieving most of these improvements means reclaiming space from private cars.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. But I’m saying 50 minutes would be ok. The car is 25-30 minutes outside of rush hour and even 40 in it. That’s still a lot more time for the bus. I don’t think such an expectation is that unreasonable.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
If we know that the best-case (ie clear roads) scenario for on-bus time is 43 minutes, then making it a 50-minute door to door journey doesn't seem reasonably achievable to me.
If you were to say, the problem with the buses is that they stop running at midnight, or they only operate once an hour, then that would be something that would be feasible to improve. I'd agree that it represented a poor public transport service and could be made better. I expect there are many locations in Z5 or 6 where this is the case. That's why I specifically said zones 3 and 4 in my initial comment. But your particular example, even though one end of it is in Zone 5, actually it is not really a good example of poor public transport provision with the scope fro game-changing improvements.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
Again though why can I get to Bromley Town hall in 50 minutes but not another part of Bromley? It must be possible.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Because it happens to be in a location that is easier to get to from your start point. Maybe the roads that buses use to get there are wider, or less busy. I assume it's in Bromley town centre and town centre locations will be more likely to be served by more bus routes, because they tend to be used as interchange points. And when you design your bus network it generally makes sense to put your interchange points in places where large numbers of people want to get to.
Bus Stopped
Active Member
I don’t think we are that far apart. Maybe it can’t get down to a feasible amount of time. But I think bus services could be significantly improved (they have actually got worse), and I think there is at least a possibility such journeys could become feasible.
The 24h bus lanes were definitely a good idea, made quite a lot of difference and even with the current LTN issue locally they stop it being far worse.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I really agree with this and tbf I’m really not massively pro-LTN, more pro-fewer cars when possible. And as with the evils of car drivers/cyclists (pick your side as appropriate) arguments, It’s also very easy to get sucked in to arguing a more polarised position than you hold.
It’s also ultimately impossible to judge any individual’s story of why they need their car. There are definitely some people who are genuinely reliant on their car and they shouldn’t be judged. But there’s also a hell of a lot of drivers who really could do something different with only minor inconvenience, despite their self justifications, and that behaviour is what needs to change.
The bit that does make me angry though is when bad/aggressive/illegal driving is excused by other drivers as due to LTN frustration. No. Car and motorbike drivers are not toddlers, they can bloody well own their feelings and behaviour or not be considered safe to drive.
Main concern is the buses really. Yes the root cause is obviously too many cars, and yes traffic on SHR and surroundings was always bad, but it wasn’t consistently this bad - you can understand why people are frustrated, and wondering how long they have to wait for things to bed in (if they ever do)
Probably the worst time of year for it to start too with the weather and dark mornings/nights.
Probably the worst time of year for it to start too with the weather and dark mornings/nights.
There doesn't seem to have been any additional provision of public transport for Tulse Hill to mitigate the disruption of the new LTNs.
I have always said it, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a high frequency bus route along the A205 from Tulse Hill heading westwards. Eastwards is difficult because of railway bridges, but why shouldn't a double decker bus start at West Norwood garage and go along the A205 to Clapham and onwards?
As it stands, Clapham is 10 minutes by car from TH, 35 minutes on public transport, which needs a bus to Stockwell and then a tube on the Northern Line.
As regards Streatham Hill LTN, the only bus going through that is the P13 which is infrequent, well used, often to the point of being able to let anyone else on, and is a small bus. Why not run a double decker along the A205, take a left at the top of Brixton Hill and travel out to Streatham / Norbury?
The LTNs are much more difficult to deal with if there aren't public transport improvements introduced alongside them. Especially in this weather.
I have always said it, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a high frequency bus route along the A205 from Tulse Hill heading westwards. Eastwards is difficult because of railway bridges, but why shouldn't a double decker bus start at West Norwood garage and go along the A205 to Clapham and onwards?
As it stands, Clapham is 10 minutes by car from TH, 35 minutes on public transport, which needs a bus to Stockwell and then a tube on the Northern Line.
As regards Streatham Hill LTN, the only bus going through that is the P13 which is infrequent, well used, often to the point of being able to let anyone else on, and is a small bus. Why not run a double decker along the A205, take a left at the top of Brixton Hill and travel out to Streatham / Norbury?
The LTNs are much more difficult to deal with if there aren't public transport improvements introduced alongside them. Especially in this weather.
I gave up at midday and went home. All the buses were stuck in a traffic jam in the left lane, right lane full of stuck cars. It was moving, but very slowly.
Most of the buses were empty, but there weren't streams of people walking down the street like you see when the water mains burst on Brixton Hill. So I guess many have given up like me.
I mean today was fine as it was just me on the bus but as a wheelchair using family, we basically feel that Streatham is closed to us while Lambeth spend 18months clearing the roads for people that 'have to drive' like us.
Luckily we can do most of what we access Streatham for, in Brixton.
Most of the buses were empty, but there weren't streams of people walking down the street like you see when the water mains burst on Brixton Hill. So I guess many have given up like me.
I mean today was fine as it was just me on the bus but as a wheelchair using family, we basically feel that Streatham is closed to us while Lambeth spend 18months clearing the roads for people that 'have to drive' like us.
Luckily we can do most of what we access Streatham for, in Brixton.
Yes, I wasn't expecting it at midday, that's why I went at that time. Been trying to go for weeks but mostly I can only go to Streatham for shopping at rush hour so have avoided and chose the one day I could go at midday. I haven't tried at the weekends yet but it might be ok, I was put off by today but if there's no road works it will work.
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