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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

More horrendous traffic today on various different routes. Nightmare for the buses.

The pollution on the main roads must be bad. A huge amount of people live there. I used to and you could see the pollution when you wiped windowsills. Or to be honest any wall! I couldn’t clean painted walls in the end as it would just smudge black marks across them.

I can’t see why it wouldn’t work to ban most private use vehicles and have a huge state owned zip car type operation.
 
This is what the madder antis say the true aim of LTNs is

I don’t think it’s mad. Sadly it’s never gonna happen. I read somewhere that the average car is only used 10% of the time. Can’t see why everyone couldn’t use zip cars. People collectively use buses and trains.

But given the car lobby it’s a non starter.

But this LTN is so far terrible for me :(
 
More horrendous traffic today on various different routes. Nightmare for the buses.

The pollution on the main roads must be bad. A huge amount of people live there. I used to and you could see the pollution when you wiped windowsills. Or to be honest any wall! I couldn’t clean painted walls in the end as it would just smudge black marks across them.

I can’t see why it wouldn’t work to ban most private use vehicles and have a huge state owned zip car type operation.

Your proposal (which I'd support) isn't politically achievable. LTNs are (just).

As for this one, give it time before reaching conclusions.
 
More horrendous traffic today on various different routes. Nightmare for the buses.

The pollution on the main roads must be bad. A huge amount of people live there. I used to and you could see the pollution when you wiped windowsills. Or to be honest any wall! I couldn’t clean painted walls in the end as it would just smudge black marks across them.

I can’t see why it wouldn’t work to ban most private use vehicles and have a huge state owned zip car type operation.
Road pricing would be a far more effective and equitable way of reducing overall traffic: - by reducing traffic on the main roads there's less incentive to rat-run on the minor.. .which if necessary could be reinforced by differential pricing.. in fact you could have lots of fun with it.
 
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Road pricing would be a far more effective and equitable way of reducing overall traffic: - by reducing traffic on the main roads there's less incentive to rat-run on the minor.. .which if necessary could be reinforced by differential pricing.. in fact you could have lots of fun with it.
You could maybe introduce a charge for the whole of london, to drive into it or within it. You could start off really soft touch, like only apply a charge to the most polluting vehicles. You could try that and see if all the folk who go nuts about LTNs welcome this fairer alternative approach with open arms.
 
You could maybe introduce a charge for the whole of london, to drive into it or within it. You could start off really soft touch, like only apply a charge to the most polluting vehicles. You could try that and see if all the folk who go nuts about LTNs welcome this fairer alternative approach with open arms.
Though stangely ULEZ is up and running as is the congestion charge from 20 years ago. With Hackney now investigating options for future road charging.. just shows what is possible with some political will.

In terms of receptiveness I've seen somewhere that drivers may prefer PAYG to flat rate charges as it gives them the perception of more control. Also unlike LTNs the impact would be to reduce congestion everywhere, rather than increasing it in some places... so better for other road users, and no adverse impacts on people discovering a load of traffic's been relocated down their road.
 
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Though stangely ULEZ is up and running as is the congestion charge from 20 years ago. With Hackney now investigating options for future road charging.. just shows what is possible with some political will.

In terms of receptiveness I've seen somewhere that drivers may prefer PAYG to flat rate charges as it gives them the perception of more control. Also unlike LTNs the impact would be to reduce congestion everywhere, rather than increasing it in some places... so better for other road users, and no adverse impacts on people discovering a load of traffic's been relocated down their road.
Of course the evidence shows that LTNs don’t displace traffic. Also your use of “their road” is quite telling - they’re “our roads”.
 
The last few days there's suddenly been a lot of traffic using Milkwood Road between Herne Hill and Loughborough Junction. I wonder if it's related to the Streatham LTN implementation. If I ask google for driving instructions from somewhere south of Streatham to central London, it shows this as part of a potential route sometimes. I am not going to panic about it because if it is the cause, I expect it will settle down again - just curious.
 
The last few days there's suddenly been a lot of traffic using Milkwood Road between Herne Hill and Loughborough Junction. I wonder if it's related to the Streatham LTN implementation. If I ask google for driving instructions from somewhere south of Streatham to central London, it shows this as part of a potential route sometimes. I am not going to panic about it because if it is the cause, I expect it will settle down again - just curious.

What route(s) is Google suggesting south of Herne Hill? Anecdotally some traffic that previously used Valley Road/Leigham Vale to Tulse Hill is now cutting through backstreets of Norbury to get up to Beulah Hill/Crown Point and then going down Knights Hill/ Norwood Road.
 
The last few days there's suddenly been a lot of traffic using Milkwood Road between Herne Hill and Loughborough Junction. I wonder if it's related to the Streatham LTN implementation. If I ask google for driving instructions from somewhere south of Streatham to central London, it shows this as part of a potential route sometimes. I am not going to panic about it because if it is the cause, I expect it will settle down again - just curious.
I thought there was no displacement, only evaporation?

Some of the factors hitting the A23 have been temporary, there was an accident yesterday or the day before
 
I thought there was no displacement, only evaporation?

Some of the factors hitting the A23 have been temporary, there was an accident yesterday or the day before
There is always displacement in the short term, this is why I said I'm not panicking at this stage.
 
What route(s) is Google suggesting south of Herne Hill? Anecdotally some traffic that previously used Valley Road/Leigham Vale to Tulse Hill is now cutting through backstreets of Norbury to get up to Beulah Hill/Crown Point and then going down Knights Hill/ Norwood Road.
Pretty much that, Tulse Hill & West Norwood south of Herne Hill.

Today Google seems less keen on these alternative routes - its first choice is Streatham Hill and Brixton Hill. And the route through Herne Hill is then along Denmark Hill & through Camberwell rather than LJ.
 
Though stangely ULEZ is up and running as is the congestion charge from 20 years ago. With Hackney now investigating options for future road charging.. just shows what is possible with some political will.
Though it remains a culture war issue with cameras still being vandalised and the tory candidate still trying to make removing ULEZ the key pledge of her mayoral election pitch for next year.
£10m cost of ULEZ camera vandalism

and the guys installing the Brixton Hill LTN cameras were getting abuse from people who thought they were doing ULEZ cameras apparently. All the more bizarre given ULEZ has been in place here for over a year. They really should work on a cure for stupidity.
 
Of course the evidence shows that LTNs don’t displace traffic.
This just isn't true Ed. Numerous people around London have seen traffic increase in their roads as a result of LTNs. And if you're completely dismissive of people's direct experience then leading LTN academic Rachel Aldred acknowledges there's a problem on boundary roads with over half picking up extra traffic.
 
This just isn't true Ed. Numerous people around London have seen traffic increase in their roads as a result of LTNs. And if you're completely dismissive of people's direct experience then leading LTN academic Rachel Aldred acknowledges there's a problem on boundary roads with over half picking up extra traffic.
Okay Hol - it’d be good if you show the evidence.
 
Specifically, this study found substantial reductions in motor traffic within scheme areas, while across boundary roads there was very little aggregate change (+0.7% mean average compared to background trends).
 
Here is a copy and paste of the full conclusion section, with emphasis added, for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

Conclusions​

Mean falls in motor traffic on internal roads are around ten times greater than mean rises in motor traffic on boundary roads, adjusting for background trends. We believe that this result suggests that these LTN schemes may be contributing to ‘traffic evaporation’ or ‘disappearing traffic’ (Cairns et al., 2002). Traffic evaporation refers to the many ways in which people adjust habitual behaviour in response to restrictions, which may lead to a reduction in motor traffic. This may simply mean a car trip to a specific destination is directly replaced by a walking or cycling trip. Probably more common, however, are more complex changes: for instance, a person makes fewer trips to the supermarket (by car) and more shopping trips on foot to the local shops, or combining car trip destinations to increase efficiency.8 We cannot say which of these types of behavioural response is dominant in the schemes studied here.

Specifically, this study found substantial reductions in motor traffic within scheme areas, while across boundary roads there was very little aggregate change (+0.7% mean average compared to background trends). We have not attempted to calculate overall traffic reduction due to these schemes, because aggregation is affected by the number of count points, and in most cases, more counters could have hypothetically been placed (particularly on internal roads, more numerous than boundary roads). However, the results indicate that motor traffic has been reduced, and only a small proportion re-routed to boundary roads. This is suggested by the mean increase of 82 vehicles per day on each boundary road being much lower than the mean reduction of 815 vehicles on each internal road.

This indicates that LTNs can contribute to wider traffic reduction objectives. It is encouraging to see on average so little change in boundary road traffic volumes. Perhaps the widely fluctuating Covid-19 trends (as well as the tendency of some authorities to introduce schemes in September following the annual August fall in congestion) have contributed to perceptions that such schemes make large contributions to boundary road traffic. And it may still be the case that despite relatively little changes in boundary road traffic, those car journeys which continue to be made as before take longer simply because cut-throughs are no longer available. This study only looked at motor traffic volumes, not journey times or trip distances (e.g. through a travel survey); different methods are needed to test and quantify changes in journey time or trip distances. For instance, Goodman et al. (2023) used Driver and Vehicle Licencing Agency data, which found a 6.4% decrease in distance driven per vehicle among those living in areas in Lambeth, South London, where LTNs were introduced.

Finally, it is important that boundary roads are not forgotten. They do experience often substantial traffic burdens, and just over half the boundary roads in this study saw increases over the monitoring periods (with just under half seeing a reduction). Tools are needed to reduce burdens on boundary roads, whether by traffic reduction and/or mitigation of its effects. A paper by Hajmohammadi and Heydecker (2002) found that the introduction of London’s Ultra Low Emission Zone in April 2019 led to reductions in NO, NO2, and NOx concentrations both within the implementation zone and the wider low emission zone (LEZ) and Greater London area. LTNs represent one tool alongside many others (such as bus priority, pollution taxes, road charging, and/or car parking levies, which address different aspects of the problem and/or address different behavioural patterns) that may be needed to achieve the ambitious reductions in car use sought by many cities including London. Further research could explore and compare the impacts and different contributions of these tools alone or in combination.
 
The traffic levels on minor roads in London (by road type in vehicle miles (billions)), were identical in 2021 and 2022 and 2018.

So how does that fit in with LTNs evaporating traffic?

Research must be very difficult as traffic could be displaced far beyond boundary roads.

Again I’m not against LTNs I just think they are a drop in the ocean in terms of what’s need to stop pollution and traffic and sceptical about their overall benefits. Sure those in them do better but others may well do worse.
 
The traffic levels on minor roads in London (by road type in vehicle miles (billions)), were identical in 2021 and 2022 and 2018.
2018-20bn
2021-18.5bn
2022-19.1bn

Even if I were to accept that this is a good measure of the success of LTNs (I do not) that's not identical.

When you measure the traffic before and after interventions you find that the increase in some roads are not as big as the drop on other roads. Only some traffic is displaced, the rest goes away. Some people make different choices, that's all. Evaporation is just the word used. Some people seem to react badly to the word, maybe they think it's meant literally.

I think you'd struggle to find anyone in favour of such schemes who thinks it's the only thing needed. But do let me know if you find someone in favour of LTNs and no other traffic reduction schemes.
 
2018-20bn
2021-18.5bn
2022-19.1bn

Even if I were to accept that this is a good measure of the success of LTNs (I do not) that's not identical.

When you measure the traffic before and after interventions you find that the increase in some roads are not as big as the drop on other roads. Only some traffic is displaced, the rest goes away. Some people make different choices, that's all. Evaporation is just the word used. Some people seem to react badly to the word, maybe they think it's meant literally.

I think you'd struggle to find anyone in favour of such schemes who thinks it's the only thing needed. But do let me know if you find someone in favour of LTNs and no other traffic reduction schemes.

You have taken all roads. I was referring to minor roads.

But given the increased amount of people working from home you would expect big drops.

I’m not sure you can know if it goes as traffic may be displaced a long way away.

I guess I think that without serious measures LTNs are a bit of a gimmick and I’m not sure the upsides are worth the downsides. But have no firm view on it other than it definitely shouldn’t disrupt buses.
 
The traffic levels on minor roads in London (by road type in vehicle miles (billions)), were identical in 2021 and 2022 and 2018.

So how does that fit in with LTNs evaporating traffic?

Research must be very difficult as traffic could be displaced far beyond boundary roads.

Again I’m not against LTNs I just think they are a drop in the ocean in terms of what’s need to stop pollution and traffic and sceptical about their overall benefits. Sure those in them do better but others may well do worse.
I don't think the aggregate DfT estimates are a useful measure of the impact or effectiveness of LTNs.

Theres no way every road in the country can be measured so the counts are based on a sample of 8000 roads across the whole of the UK, of which a subset are going to be minor roads. It's quite possible that sample doesn't include a single road that was within an LTN created in the last few years.


Within an LTN it's only the rat runs that are going to see a major change in traffic. And even in Lambeth the new LTNs only covered a small area of the borough. Even if the DfT sample did pick up a completely representive sample of LTN roads across the country the difference they would make to the figures wouldn't be large enough to be distinguishable from other factors.

e454a2fe-ac44-4713-bc31-7a70a07be39b.png

ltns-throughout-the-borough.jpg

But given the increased amount of people working from home you would expect big drops.

Perhaps outside London, but in the city very few of the people (most of whom would be doing desk based office jobs) who switched to working from home would have been commuting by car anyway. I can't find the data now, but in many parts of London private car traffic actually went up as people who were now home based and 'working flexibly' made trips by car during the day that they'd not have made when they were sitting at a desk in Zone 1 (having travelled to work by public transport). COVID also caused a fear of using public transport, which led to people using private cars more (there was an increase in car ownership in London in many places as a result). The South Circular seemed to be the road where this was most evident - yes, volumes on the SC went up near Lambeths LTNs, but sections of the SC that were nowhere near any road network changes also saw increases at the same level.
 
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Took the bus up to Streatham Hill station this morning and there no delays waiting in traffic. Whilst that stopped short of Leigham Court Road I would have thought that means traffic not backed up too badly if at all.
 
I just had a quick look to see what google maps was saying about congestion in the streatham area this morning. It looks less bad than when I looked a couple of times last week.

I happened to notice that currently some of the worst congestion in south london is here

Screenshot 2023-11-20 at 11.41.19.jpg

where there are extended stretches of dual carriageway road and acres of car-serviced retail parks.

It's almost as if providing extra road capacity creates more traffic rather than relieving it.
 
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