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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Streatham Action has a meeting next week focussed solely on the LTN (they don’t seem to do much else). They’re led by Tory councillor candidate Neil Salt who based his failed election campaign on removing LTNs 🙄 They seem determined to whip up anti sentiment to them - can’t see why it’s helpful to have a meeting solely focused on it less than 2 weeks into the trial!

It’s when negative sentiment will be highest, Give it much longer and people will get used to it, and might even like it !
 
Yep - there’s a reason Wandsworth ripped them out within weeks.

Stupid, in Brixton hill ulez it took Uber 8 weeks to reroute drivers.

If you aren’t going to wait for satnav to change - the most obvious source of traffic there is.
What is the point, you’ve not even tried ?
 
Streatham Wells LTN started on Monday.

Slightly chaotic for the first few days as bits of Leigham Court Road were closed due to Thames Water fixing broken pipes, and Google Maps etc haven't fully updated yet.

But now on day 3 residents are reporting much quieter roads. One said they could hear birdsong instead of traffic noise for the first time in a long time.


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The Valley Road closure is a real game changer for all who live along that stretch. The buses along there can now run on time and all the transient motorist who have been using Valley Road as a short cut now need to re think their route/ journey.
 
Stupid, in Brixton hill ulez it took Uber 8 weeks to reroute drivers.

If you aren’t going to wait for satnav to change - the most obvious source of traffic there is.
What is the point, you’ve not even tried ?
Yep- they just wasted money on installing them only to rip them out. Glad Lambeth are sticking to their guns and rolling out in a measured way. Reckon Streatham Wells will be a real test of people against but this needs to be a long term change so there will be short term pain.
 
SHR has been a parking lot for at least the last 25 years in my experience.
I thought LTNs are supposed to evaporate traffic so SHR traffic could improve long term? I don't really believe this will happen. We need some sorry of mega congestion charge that covers everything within the North and South circulars. (People would riot.)
 
We need some sorry of mega congestion charge that covers everything within the North and South circulars. (People would riot.)
Electric vehicles pay no fuel duty. Over time, as they gradually replace petrol and diesel vehicles, government will need a new source of tax. Road pricing - pay per mile - is the best and most likely solution.
 
Electric vehicles pay no fuel duty. Over time, as they gradually replace petrol and diesel vehicles, government will need a new source of tax. Road pricing - pay per mile - is the best and most likely solution.
They do pay VAT on the electricity though. Either 5% domestic rate or 20% if it's a public charger. Road tax per mile is going to be quite small so we will still need things like congestion charge to discourage driving in city centres.
 
Says who?
Modern car does roughly 40-50mpg, let's say that's 20km per litre. Fuel tax is 50p per litre. So current tax is around 50p for every 20 kilometers or £1 for every 25 miles.

Seems pretty minimal compared to the overall purchase price and running costs of a car
 
The Valley Road closure is a real game changer for all who live along that stretch. The buses along there can now run on time and all the transient motorist who have been using Valley Road as a short cut now need to re think their route/ journey.
Yes. Traffic data shows 10,000 vehicles use Valley Road each day. That's insane.

For comparison, 25,000 vehicles use the south circular each day along the Brixton Hill/Streatham stretch - and that's one of the busiest roads in south London.

No one should be subjected to 10,000 vehicles a day on a minor residential road. It's dangerous for kids getting to school, the noise and pollution is awful and the buses regularly get delayed.

People who live there tell me their lives are already better as a result.
 
Modern car does roughly 40-50mpg, let's say that's 20km per litre. Fuel tax is 50p per litre. So current tax is around 50p for every 20 kilometers or £1 for every 25 miles.

Seems pretty minimal compared to the overall purchase price and running costs of a car
Under the current regime, yes, because it's not priced per mile. The discussion was about future road pricing, per mile.
 
Under the current regime, yes, because it's not priced per mile. The discussion was about future road pricing, per mile.
This is what fuel duty currently raises for the gov. So that's what they would need to price if they wanted to raise the same amount. And they could scrap fuel duty at the same time and be no worse off.
 
Yes. Traffic data shows 10,000 vehicles use Valley Road each day. That's insane.

For comparison, 25,000 vehicles use the south circular each day along the Brixton Hill/Streatham stretch - and that's one of the busiest roads in south London.

No one should be subjected to 10,000 vehicles a day on a minor residential road. It's dangerous for kids getting to school, the noise and pollution is awful and the buses regularly get delayed.

People who live there tell me their lives are already better as a result.
It's not a minor residential road though is it? From maps/ satellite view you can see that it's much wider than many surrounding roads, and from my personal perspective it's easier for traffic to flow through Valley road than LCR, which is the designated boundary road. LCR is also residential and frequently has cars parked on both sides.

LCR is the road with the most schools/nurseries on it and the LTN is diverting traffic from Valley to LCR.

Obviously great for people who live on Valley road and are now breathing cleaner air but less great for people who live or go to school on LCR or other boundary roads.
 
This is what fuel duty currently raises for the gov. So that's what they would need to price if they wanted to raise the same amount. And they could scrap fuel duty at the same time and be no worse off.
Yes, but you were suggesting a congestion charge for the whole of London. That would be on top of the tax currently raised. The point is, once we have universal road pricing there won't be the need for things like supplementary congestion charges for specific areas, enforced with their own infrastructure. It can be rolled into general road pricing (which could, for example, be made very low in rural areas with hardly any public transport, and much higher in urban areas with good public transport). Whether that new scheme would end up "revenue neutral" compared to the current arrangement is then a political decision. People like me would say, no, at present we do not charge private motorists enough so there's no reason to keep it cost neutral, but lots of people of course would kick off. However, as you say, they kick off anyway about things like congestion charging schemes.
 
LCR is the road with the most schools/nurseries on it and the LTN is diverting traffic from Valley to LCR.
This whole thing about "but there are schools and nurseries on the boundary roads". That's because they are non-residential uses, they are use types that large numbers of people need to get to and from every day, whether by public or private transport. So just like shops and pubs and entertainment and other businesses they do often tend to be located along or close to what we might call "main roads".

There seems to be a large portion of people who have become concerned about air quality near schools only since LTNs became a thing. Assuming LTNs work as intended, they shouldn't generally increase traffic on the boundary roads. In the long term they should help reduce traffic on those roads.

If there is a concern about air quality near schools, schools which are on main roads, then the solution isn't to throw out the LTNs, it's to address levels of traffic, and how polluting it is, in general. That is, all the other measures that need to go alongside LTNs (and in London, there are plenty of other measures in play; LTNs aren't supposed to solve everything by themselves). The people who are now so vocal about air quality near schools, how many of them were supporting and promoting transport policies that reduce traffic and pollution, before LTNs appeared and perhaps inconvenienced them somewhat in their habitual travel choices?

That is, unless your proposed solution is to design the boundary roads such that they carry traffic away from roads with schools on them, which means that you would be deliberately routing it away from roads that are the ones with shops and all the rest of it, and the ones that historically have been designed and intended to carry heavier traffic. So, your proposal then becomes to deliberately route motor traffic primarily along residential streets.
 
That is, unless your proposed solution is to design the boundary roads such that they carry traffic away from roads with schools on them, which means that you would be deliberately routing it away from roads that are the ones with shops and all the rest of it, and the ones that historically have been designed and intended to carry heavier traffic. So, your proposal then becomes to deliberately route motor traffic primarily along residential streets.
Excellent idea. It would require some road layout changes but I would be in favour.

What irks me is this false dichotomy between residential and non residential roads, because actually in Streatham the highest density housing is on the main roads and schools etc. as you say. TFL schemes with pavement widening, reducing number of lanes etc. will help a bit. I would ideally like to put cars, especially HGVs and vans, as far away from the most people as possible.
 
Reviews are mixed. And here is the cut down LTN camera on Amesbury in print and in photo for those who were excited to see it reported. :)

This is inevitable, the Lambeth data on lynam road in Brixton hill said that between 85% and 100% of traffic in the even peak were none local traffic. This is huge number of drivers who had no notice LTNs were being introduced

These drivers found this out when they couldn’t drive down a road. Until satnavs reroute traffic, the chaos continues. For ref - kings ave ( where the lyham road traffic ended up ) is back to normal now, but it took two months.
 
What irks me is this false dichotomy between residential and non residential roads, because actually in Streatham the highest density housing is on the main roads and schools etc. as you say.
What false dichotomy? Describing a street as "residential" generally means that the buildings along it are primarily domestic residences. That's a useful category to have, because many such streets exist and they generally don't need to cater for things like regular large scale deliveries or carry high usage public transport services.

Making that category doesn't mean that any streets not in it, have no residential properties on them. In my post that your reply is to, I did not describe any streets as "non-residential". I described them as "main roads" or "boundary roads".
 
I would ideally like to put cars, especially HGVs and vans, as far away from the most people as possible.

You want to have your cake and eat it.

Want to keep cars away from the most people possible? Ok, ban private cars from the city altogether then.

Oh, but we can't do that because some people really do need private cars? Ok. What do they need them for? To get to services and to see other people? So they need to go to where people are? Right, so we must let people drive to get to other people and services but we have to organise it so that in order to do this, they stay as far as possible from other people and services? Doesn't really work does it. If you genuinely want to keep cars away from people, the only solution is to reduce the number of them that are going around to an absolute minimum.

Much the same applies to vans and HGVs. If they are doing genuinely necessary stuff, then the stuff they are doing is getting stuff to where people and businesses are.

This cake-and-eat-it thinking is partly what is behind the planning disaster of out of town retail parks. A town centre realises that it would be much more pleasant without heavy traffic. So they pedestrianise shopping streets, build ring roads and so on. All to keep the traffic away from the people. And that works just fine if everyone using the city centre facilities uses public transport to get there. But they don't, either because the public transport isn't provided or because they don't want to use it, or a mixture of both. So what happens? Retail parks appear outside of the centre, which are seemingly convenient to get to if you don't want to give up your car. And lots of people start driving there, and these anti-pedestrian hellholes which are also hard to serve with public transport expand and expand, and the town centre businesses lose trade and the nice pedestrianised town centre ends up with charity shops and empty units and anyone who doesn't have a car loses out massively.

That's not me making an argument against pedestrianised town centres. It's an argument against failing to make the town planning decisions that prevent all the activity moving out of the centre. Those decisions don't get made properly, because there's always so much resistance to anything that makes it more difficult to do everything by car. It's because of the same cake-and-eat-it mindset that you are displaying. They want the attractive town centre but they also want to be able to drive everywhere.

The idea that we can make residential streets the main traffic arteries is nonsensical and it's just deluded thinking that doesn't want to engage with the fact that if you really genuinely want to get traffic away from people you have to reduce the amount of traffic overall. And where you start is by eliminating all the journeys that really aren't necessary to do by private car because other perfectly viable modes are available.
 
These drivers found this out when they couldn’t drive down a road. Until satnavs reroute traffic, the chaos continues.
Yes the traffic gets displaced into other areas. Given time they'll find other rat-runs. This is what happened and was planned in Haringey, Though unsuprisingly has managed to get excluded from the interim evalution report of my local LTN.

Anyway, a small progress this week, in that after a year of highlighting the problems in my road, they appear to have finally put a traffic counter in.
 
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Obviously early days but as a bus user Streatham Wells LTN has been a bit of a nightmare so far. SHR is always busy of course but it’s seemed significantly worse at rush hour. And not pleasant for pedestrians.

The hope is of course it all settles down but if bus journey times remain significantly longer then it’s not good.
 
Obviously early days but as a bus user Streatham Wells LTN has been a bit of a nightmare so far. SHR is always busy of course but it’s seemed significantly worse at rush hour. And not pleasant for pedestrians.

The hope is of course it all settles down but if bus journey times remain significantly longer then it’s not good.
There’s power works on Leigham Court Road that are effecting it today but yes if it impacts buses really not good.

Does seem this LTN is the most ambitious as so many people seem to drive everyday in Streatham.
 
There’s power works on Leigham Court Road that are effecting it today but yes if it impacts buses really not good.

Does seem this LTN is the most ambitious as so many people seem to drive everyday in Streatham.

Yeah the roadworks have made it a lot worse today but it’s been bad every day. And roadworks are not an unusual occurrence on that road.

Time will tell I suppose, maybe traffic will reduce (or sat navs will find new routes…) but I’m not particularly hopeful. Its not just local drivers, it’s a major route in S London.
 
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