Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[edcraw]

With regards to my friend yesterday, I don't think she is misinformed as more badly informed.
For an entire road to be up in arms and forming a petition from car and non car owners, I would assume the consultation has been poor (that wouldn't be a first) or the initial plan was to make Harborough Rd inaccessible (ill thought through, also a Lambeth trademark) or the option of opening the one way was only proposed as unlikely.
I'm a teacher and if one or two kids don't understand what I presented, there might be a slight obfuscation. When a whole class don't understand, it's cause I've done a shit job explaining.

Being told you won’t be able to access your home is misinformed. It’s obviously not going to be true and the person telling them should have checked beforehand.

 

[thebackrow]

I would assume the consultation has been poor (that wouldn't be a first)

(ill thought through, also a Lambeth trademark)

Rather than just repeating those tropes can you point out anywhere those statements have been true with regard to any of Lambeth LTNs? You don’t need to make any assumptions- all the materials are online still.

 

[nagapie]

Rather than just repeating those tropes can you point out anywhere those statements have been true with regard to any of Lambeth LTNs? You don’t need to make any assumptions- all the materials are online still.

As a family with a blue badge holder the entire process has been poorly consulted, informed and processed so I'm not really a person to argue that with.

 

[nagapie]

Rather than just repeating those tropes can you point out anywhere those statements have been true with regard to any of Lambeth LTNs? You don’t need to make any assumptions- all the materials are online still.

Furthermore as a Lambeth resident, worker and volunteer advocate for over 20 years, I was not talking only about LTNs.

 

[Cat Fan]

With regards to my friend yesterday, I don't think she is misinformed as more badly informed.
For an entire road to be up in arms and forming a petition from car and non car owners, I would assume the consultation has been poor (that wouldn't be a first) or the initial plan was to make Harborough Rd inaccessible (ill thought through, also a Lambeth trademark) or the option of opening the one way was only proposed as unlikely.
I'm a teacher and if one or two kids don't understand what I presented, there might be a slight obfuscation. When a whole class don't understand, it's cause I've done a shit job explaining.

Well yeah, throwing open consultation on the future of the road to the general population instead of making an effort to engage with those who live on the road and getting their views first was asking for trouble.

 

[nagapie]

Being told you won’t be able to access your home is misinformed. It’s obviously not going to be true and the person telling them should have checked beforehand.

Unless that person was Lambeth initially.
I think you're missing my point about the clarity of a consultation when a whole road of people don't understand. It isn't necessarily malicious misinformation.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Rather than just repeating those tropes can you point out anywhere those statements have been true with regard to any of Lambeth LTNs? You don’t need to make any assumptions- all the materials are online still.

They are online but you have to search for them, and I wouldn’t have had a clue that the Brixton Hill consultation had gone out if it wasn’t for having a partner who was signed up to alerts. It’s not seemed hugely publicised.

Not quite like putting a planning application up for public display in a basement, at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet with a sign on it saying “beware of the leopard” but close.

 

[Cat Fan]

No - not meant as a snipe at you. But so many drivers only seem to care about pollution when it comes to measures that slightly inconvenience them. I’m not convinced there are many people against LTNs that don’t own cars and if they are it tends to be because they’ve been misinformed.

Ok that's fair enough. I think it can be a bit more nuanced than just drivers vs non-drivers personally.

 

[thebackrow]

They are online but you have to search for them, and I wouldn’t have had a clue that the Brixton Hill consultation had gone out if it wasn’t for having a partner who was signed up to alerts. It’s not seemed hugely publicised.

Not quite like putting a planning application up for public display in a basement, at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet with a sign on it saying “beware of the leopard” but close.

And the mailings to every home in and around the area. And the notices on lampposts. And the stuff in Lambeth magazine. And coverage in local press. And all over social media.

Apart from all that it’s been completely invisible

 

[Agent Sparrow]

And the mailings to every home in and around the area. And the notices on lampposts. And the stuff in Lambeth magazine. And coverage in local press. And all over social media.

Apart from all that it’s been completely invisible

I received nothing. The school I’m involved with received nothing, or at least they hadn’t by the time the consultation had been open for some time.

 

[thebackrow]

I received nothing. The school I’m involved with received nothing, or at least they hadn’t by the time the consultation had been open for some time.

I don’t know where you live or which school you’re talking about but the point is you DID hear about it, via multiple routes (your wife, school and presumably on here as a fairly frequent poster ) before the consultation ended. Which looks like successful council comms to me.

There’s no much point telling everyone before it opens as they can’t do anything (but the council did pre announce them anyway). And it obviously takes some time for a comma team to work their way through the rest of the list.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

The point is you DID hear about it, via multiple routes (your wife, school and presumably on here as a fairly frequent poster ) before the consultation ended. Which looks like successful council comms to me.

No, I told school. And I don’t think the council should really rely on messages being spread by Urban or SMN.

And Crispy will be delighted to get more in touch with his feminine side

 

[thebackrow]

No, I told school. And I don’t think the council should really rely on messages being spread by Urban or SMN.

And Crispy will be delighted to get more in touch with his feminine side

Word of mouth is a key part of any comms strategy.

And apologies- should always use neutral pronouns! But should have at least clicked the @mother” in your sig.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

And apologies- should always use neutral pronouns! But should have at least clicked the @mother” in your sig.

Still could have had a wife!

I actually quite like the idea of having one to take over the wife work tbh

 

[teuchter]

Particular concern over Leigham court road which already has +25% traffic from Streatham Hill LTN

Where is this figure from?

 

[Cat Fan]

Where is this figure from?

I quoted that one without fact checking but the actual car number is worse according to stage 2 monitoring report.

 

[Cat Fan]

Yay for -97 on hillside though lol. Sad for Leigham vale residents

 

[sparkybird]

The other stuff Ed was talking about "ULEZ, road user pricing and pollution related parking controls".

You're asking too much to ask people to take individual responsibility for a negative externality, our brains aren't capable. Game theory has proven this type of cooperation to prevent pollution is not a viable equilibrium state.

The answer therefore has to be more tax on drivers and s tricter environmental standards. Maybe bring forward the ban on petrol vehicle sales to 2025 and raise taxes on petrol/diesel. I'd be in favour.

Not sure diverting cars from one big resi road (Valley road) to another (LCR) is going to make the tiniest difference to the number of drivers on the road but it does mean more traffic around some major schools. No "schools street" available when you're on a boundary road.

You've hit the nail on the head there, drivers need to be forced to drive less. Making it more inconvenient is one way of doing this, which actually is fairer..... Rich drivers can just pay ULEZ/road pricing etc and drive just as before.
The Streatham Wells LTN is not just about Valley Road though, there are many other roads that suffer from drivers cutting through and causing chaos and traffic jams, Shrubbery, Gleneldon, Culverhouse.
The LTNs form the catchment area for the schools, so pupils get a chance to walk or cycle safely to school. Isn't this a good thing?.

 

[teuchter]

Do any of the LTNs get a stage 3 monitoring report or is stage 2 as far as it goes?

It will be interesting to see what happens to the numbers on Leigham Court Rd once the Streatham Wells LTN happens. But I'd also be interested to know what's happened between 2021 and now.

 

[Cat Fan]

The LTNs form the catchment area for the schools, so pupils get a chance to walk or cycle safely to school. Isn't this a good thing?.

As long as their walk or cycle isn't along a boundary road at any point. It will be great for some, yes. Just a little bit offset by increased pollution in classrooms and outside on their break times if their school is on one of the boundary roads.

I don't know why exactly but a lot of schools in Lambeth and even Southwark seem to be on boundary roads. I guess historical reasons partly, but whose idea was it to build City Heights academy on the south circular, and not even put a pedestrian crossing by the school for pupils to use?

 

[ianarmstrong]

9491 signatures so far - we need 10k to force a response

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/632748]

See how many have signed in your constituency - we need to try and generate 500 to 1000 signatures in each constituency - share this with family, friends, neighbours, community organisations, businesses and encourage them to do the same

769 Dulwich & West Norwood
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391 Streatham
360 Brentford & Isleworth
348 Islington South & Finsbury
345 Oxford East
325 Tottenham
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161 Chelsea & Fulham
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44 Holborn & St. Pancras
44 Chipping Barnet
39 Bethnal Green & Bow
38 Bromley & Chislehurst
38 Hammersmith

 

[Tricky Skills]

Buzzed: Lambeth proposes changes to the Ferndale Low Traffic Neighbourhood in attempt to reduce traffic towards the west

 

[sparkybird]

As long as their walk or cycle isn't along a boundary road at any point. It will be great for some, yes. Just a little bit offset by increased pollution in classrooms and outside on their break times if their school is on one of the boundary roads.

I don't know why exactly but a lot of schools in Lambeth and even Southwark seem to be on boundary roads. I guess historical reasons partly, but whose idea was it to build City Heights academy on the south circular, and not even put a pedestrian crossing by the school for pupils to use?

Yup, like I said, we just need to encourage drivers to make less unnecessary journeys.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Yup, like I said, we just need to encourage drivers to make less unnecessary journeys.

Which begs the question, if LTNs won’t do that for a core group of drivers who could reduce, how do you do it?

 

[teuchter]

Which begs the question, if LTNs won’t do that for a core group of drivers who could reduce, how do you do it?

It's not like this is a question with no answers. There are loads of things that can be done, and some of them are being done in London.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

It's not like this is a question with no answers. There are loads of things that can be done, and some of them are being done in London.

Are they working on that particularly persistent demographic though? Or sufficiently in general? I’m not sure they are.

 

[teuchter]

Are they working on that particularly persistent demographic though? Or sufficiently in general? I’m not sure they are.

Well, if the definition of the group is those people who current measures are having the least impact on, then does that mean the current measures are having no effect at all? Not necessarily. But we'd need to identify exactly who "they" are, by some other definition, in order to work out what further could be done, and I'm not sure that level of information is available.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Well, if the definition of the group is those people who current measures are having the least impact on, then does that mean the current measures are having no effect at all? Not necessarily. But we'd need to identify exactly who "they" are, by some other definition, in order to work out what further could be done, and I'm not sure that level of information is available.

I’m more asking it as a thinking aloud/thought experiment really, I don’t think the council would do anything more at this stage.

Defining the group by those who moan a lot about having their driving restricted, who start off saying it’s essential and go on to add examples that most other Londoners (including car drivers) tend to do on foot or public transport, eg taking kids to school or extra curricular activities, going to the shops or work etc.

 

[sparkybird]

Which begs the question, if LTNs won’t do that for a core group of drivers who could reduce, how do you do it?

I think we have to accept that there's not a perfect solution and it will always be via a number of methods. My point was that making it more inconvenient to use the car means every driver is impacted the same whereas increases in charges hit the lower income bracket first/hardest.

My brother lives in the middle of nowhere and has to use a car. However he plans his trips carefully to make max use of them. I think it's just too easy here in London for people to jump in the car for the slightest thing. I've had friends drive to my house when they live 10 mins walk away.....and can quite easily walk.
Don't worry they know how I feel

 

[teuchter]

Defining the group by those who moan a lot about having their driving restricted, who start off saying it’s essential and go on to add examples that most other Londoners (including car drivers) tend to do on foot or public transport, eg taking kids to school or extra curricular activities, going to the shops or work etc.

Hopefully the fact that they are moaning confirms that it is indeed having an impact on them.

Completely anecdotal but I do know a few people who initially moaned (a bit) about things but have actually changed some of their routines in response. In one case, someone who previously dropped their kid to nursery, by car, on their way to work, now often cycles to work while their partner does the school drop off on bike/foot as part of their journey to work (which is sometimes by public transport and sometimes by bike).

What was notable about this to me, was that the previous convenience meant that not only was the kid dropped to nursery by car, but the driving to work was made attractive by the fact that it could be combined with the nursery drop. An LTN made the drive to nursery and then to work more convoluted, with an element of doubling back, and that was enough to prompt a change. (I am probably over simplifying all the factors involved, but the point is, they initially were unhappy about the LTN but now seem untroubled by a change in routine that wasn't actually all that difficult to make.)