Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Not sure it's necessarily a technocracy.
It's (supposedly) a representative democracy.
People vote the mayor in, and the mayor's office makes strategic decisions on stuff like transport. That gets fed down to councils. In this case they bid for funding to implement bits of mayoral strategy. I guess the enthisuasm they pursue that with is up to them to some extent...but after all, they are supposedly voted in by the residents of the borough, although it seems that in Lambeth's case it doesn't matter what they do, people keep voting them back in.
Even when they say claim are a co-operative council, and then fail to live up to that, the same administration seems to get re-elected.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
I'm sure they have. But that doesn't mean it's a majority or even that it's local people objecting.
You're clear you're not in favour of a "technocracy". Are you also against representative democracy - you want direct democracy instead?
How granular? Would we have a referendum on the overall Transport Strategy and plan or individual low traffic neighbourhoods?
Or smaller parts of a scheme (like north Shakespeare Road). Although that's a bit difficult because you'd expect the scheme is designed as a whole so taking one part out probably breaks everything.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You've made to your position clear previously. I refer you back to my previous posts.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
snowy_again
Slush
Cycling up Railton Road today I saw the new ANPR cameras and signs installed. I was going to stop and take a photo but had to go and assist another cyclist.
He’d been pushed into the curb and onto the pavement as an SUV couldn’t wait for him to go around the corner so got annoyed, honked his horn and then drove at him to get him to move out of the way.
Having cycled around town today and driven around a lot last week my two observations are that there are hundreds of new cyclists and that the standard of driving has plummeted from its low level pre lockdown.
I’m off to report 4 drivers for being on their phone - 6points and a £200 fine should be coming their way.
What’s been missing amongst the class based debate here is that if you give someone a heavy metal box which moves quickly just by moving your foot, it changes many people into fucking psychopaths
He’d been pushed into the curb and onto the pavement as an SUV couldn’t wait for him to go around the corner so got annoyed, honked his horn and then drove at him to get him to move out of the way.
Having cycled around town today and driven around a lot last week my two observations are that there are hundreds of new cyclists and that the standard of driving has plummeted from its low level pre lockdown.
I’m off to report 4 drivers for being on their phone - 6points and a £200 fine should be coming their way.
What’s been missing amongst the class based debate here is that if you give someone a heavy metal box which moves quickly just by moving your foot, it changes many people into fucking psychopaths
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Interesting analogy. To be fair, in my experience, doctors don't generally make the decisions. They are encouraged not to. They provide their expert opinions and present options and you are expected to make, or at least be involved in making, decisions about your treatment, often using advice you have learned from other doctors and from sources such as the internet (which can be helpful or not). In my own fairly extensive but individual experience, you get much better care if you follow what is going on and remain involved. Doctors have a lot of other priorities and it is up to you to make sure that your own needs are being adequately met. Also, some of the worst doctors are those who become complacent and fail to listen properly to the individual patient. Collaboration is a good way forward.
NICE guidelines on Shared Decision Making.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
How do you report drivers for speaking on the phone whilst driving? Did you video them or something?
Cars still steaming through St Matthews modal gate.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I would have thought being against a "technocracy" is not extreme idea. You are sliding it to other issues I notice.
Im not an armchair philosopher. I base a lot of my views on what I see around me. Im involved in local community so I see democracy, or attempts at it, in practise.
I was at a meeting yesterday, A Cllr said they had a lot of emails about Shakespeare road. The officer urged people to comment on the Commonplace website as officers were analysing the comments and resullts.
The local Cllrs , elected as representative for the area, will hopefully be looking at results and supporting altering the scheme were needed.
This Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood idea has been done by dividing the area into different sections.
So its the Council who have been making this "granular". They have set up separate commonplace for comments on that section of the scheme.
So in practise its a mixture of representative ( Cllrs) along with the Counci encouraging locals to say what they think of this particular scheme. With Cllr taking the final decision on altering it.
Has had been said more than once here this Labour run Council is a Coop Council. Its aim is to further local democracy by having more input by local people on services and policy. Its not my idea.
So what I do is try to make that mean something. I work within the system.
Reminds me a long time ago I was representing tenants at a licensing committee meeting. Afterwards one of the sympathetic Cllrs said to me she saw her role as not to be an expert on every technicality of licensing. But to listen to resident and use her power as a Cllr to question and scrutinise what the "experts" , the officers, do.
Meeting I went to yesterday was appaling . The other Cllr had yet another go at anyone who disagreed / complained.
Im questioning my involvemnt in local issues. I dont need a leading Cllr have a go at me for just taking part in local community. I have enough problems to deal with now with the pandemic.
snowy_again
Slush
Depends - Roadsafe website when I don’t have footage.
Report a road traffic incident | The Met when I do
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
Do you reckon anything actually happens as a result of making a report?
newbie
undisambiguated
I's almost as if the whole presentation is designed to facilitate nimby 'this junction is awful' pins without providing coherent space for any wider consideration pins about displacement, resilience, social consequences or anything else.
I'm not at all surprised you feel dejected, I've been admiring your tenacity for years.
newbie
undisambiguated
Insiders prefer peace & quiet because traffic is elsewhere isn't a surprise.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Someone on this thread was had an idea about controlling traffic volumes by giving everyone an 'allocation' of tradable miles each year. Personal carbon trading
This city in Finland is taking a similar idea but thinking beyond just 'driving' and looking at carbon emissions of all transport and giving a carbon allocation.
This city in Finland is taking a similar idea but thinking beyond just 'driving' and looking at carbon emissions of all transport and giving a carbon allocation.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
No different really to expressing your opinion on whether the proposed schemes should go ahead. You were happy to make some suggestions about alternative ways to deal with excessive traffic - extending the CC zone, road rationing, banning SUVs and so on. So why the reluctance to say that you think removing already existing livable neighbourhood type schemes would be a good idea?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I note it's voluntary. Would be interesting to see how it plays out over time, and whether users work out ways to game it.
newbie
undisambiguated
No I wasn't! I made it very clear that while I wasn't running away from being questioned about alternatives to what's being imposed, it's not my proposals under discussion and specifically said that I hoped no-one would read the post in which I set out some other possibilities.
How on earth can that be described as 'happy'?
newbie
undisambiguated
Is this the 3rd or 4th time you've tried to goad me to say make London a free for all for drivers? Each time I've rejected what you're trying to push me into you come back with another attempt.
I'm hoping I'm not the only one on this thread who recognises how desperate you're getting.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Cycling Mikey has quite a few convictions to his name.... (131 videos in that playlist alone)
newbie
undisambiguated
In the same way that a voluntary and small scale Universal Basic Income trial is going to be interesting but not decisive, this is a good initiative. I think something similar is part of one or more of the proposals in the Smart City process that's been going on in India for the last couple of years. Please report back if you come across any outcomes conclusions.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I'm not asking you to say "make London a free-for-all for drivers".
I'm simply wondering whether you agree that the logic you apply to your objections to the current proposals, would also apply to similar schemes that have already been implemented.
You've been pretty clear that it's your view that designing neighbourhoods to discourage through journeys is highly problematic because it concentrates traffic on main routes.
It seems to me that therefore, places where this has already happened are actively causing high levels of pollution on main roads nearby. You are clear that this pollution could be reduced if some of that traffic could be dispersed. So I wonder why you are refusing to even discuss this.
snowy_again
Slush
And again
Keep poking, you never know I might get bored enough to indulge your ridiculous little game.
It’s not a silly little game when five people are killed by cars and car drivers everyday in the uk
newbie
undisambiguated
Their game is a player not ball attempt to set me up for a charge of hypocrisy. I presume there's something up their sleeve yet to be revealed.
I don't much like picking over stats tbh but 'killed by' implies causality, so is that a measure of convictions or something? It's very high, is it really the number of deaths involving cars and car drivers on 20mph backstreets in the inner city?
I don't much like picking over stats tbh but 'killed by' implies causality, so is that a measure of convictions or something? It's very high, is it really the number of deaths involving cars and car drivers on 20mph backstreets in the inner city?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Here's Lambeth Cyclists' current take on things.
lambethcyclists.org.uk
We’ve come a long way baby!
This page has links and details of schemes from the last few years. Click map to get to interactive site with photos Low Traffic Neighbourhoods Oval Railton Ferndale Streatham Hill Tulse Hill Moved…
lambethcyclists.org.uk
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
Causality - yes, pedestrian dies when hit by a motor vehicle. I think it's fairly safe to say the motor vehicle (or more accurately the driver) is the cause of death. Unless you're about to enter a whole world of pain perhaps do a bit of searching. There's a whole load of victim blaming in Police reports - eg Contributary factor - Dangerous action in carriageway (e.g. playing). Damn those kids wanting to play in the street, they brought it on themselves. Even allowing for that it's a very small proportion of collisions where the vulnerable party is judged to be at fault.
Pedestrian pavement deaths
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Good job
. Would you say on balance that the individuals you interrogated were broadly representative of the Railton / St Matthews community? 
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm sure you do, and those sorts of glib overstatement is why non-professionals bickering about stats gets no-one anywhere. It's dead easy to make a claim, like 5 a day, but can take days of pointless back and forth to actually unpick real meaning.
It's blatantly obvious that a great many road deaths and casualties are caused by car drivers. Had that been said no comment would have been needed.
but here we go, I don't want to do this at all
Just to be clear, the claim "five people are killed by cars and car drivers everyday" is not supported in that document. It would be much more accurate to say "five people were killed in reported road traffic accidents everyday" as the number of 'accidents' (not a word I like) involving cars, lorries, motorcycles etc is not differentiated, nor is legal determination of which driver (or other) bears responsibility. So the initial claim was outright wrong, but it takes far longer to deconstruct than to make.
More to the point of this thread, of that 5 per day, actually about 1.8 were apparently on (all types of) urban road, a figure that doesn't seem to have changed that much despite the introduction of 20mph on backstreets across some urban areas. That's far too many, as are the casualty figures for urban roads (which are actually much more concerning to my mind). But there's no breakdown, nothing to show whether the high numbers of deaths on two wheels, particularly motorbikes, are mostly urban. Nothing to show the distribution of urban road deaths and injuries between urban clearways (typically 40mph), 30mph arteries, regularly used 'ratruns' and ordinary backstreets, many now 20mph.
Without that level of detail I'm not sure how that report helps this discussion. If you have decent stats about Lambeth, with breakdown by road type, they may provide illumination.
Otherwise I don't think this sort of nitpicking is useful, so you're welcome to the last word on this.
.
thebackrow
Considerably more Brixton.
So don't use it. The Police haven't for some years - they're collisions or crashes.
20mph didn't make a lot of difference and hasn't been in place long enough. Average speeds dropped only by about 1mph. Need much more enforcement and much harsher penalties to actually get people driving at 20 and not at 30mph ("it's not a limit, the police won't do you if you're going less than 30" as I've been told by a speeding driver is indicative of how speed limits are treated)
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