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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Yup, it’s only the roads inside LTNs. Boundary roads are removed

Please can you tell me what document that is from - a link would be great if you have it but even if you could just give me a reference for where the screen shot was from that would be fine. I would really like to be able to have a look at the list of roads for myself. A screenshot of something isn't really helpful and your reply is as if you've read what someone else posted and replied to me by mistake.
 
Please can you tell me what document that is from - a link would be great if you have it but even if you could just give me a reference for where the screen shot was from that would be fine. I would really like to be able to have a look at the list of roads for myself. A screenshot of something isn't really helpful and your reply is as if you've read what someone else posted and replied to me by mistake.
I think I mentioned the study it’s taken from above. That will give you the full picture and the background data
 
I think I mentioned the study it’s taken from above. That will give you the full picture and the background data
Right Sorry i missed that part.

That journal article is the one i lined to and as far as i can see it doesn't give a list of roads they included.

A couple of sentences after the one you highlighted they say that they included boundary roads in a separate set which they didn't need to look at for that study because it was about who lives in an LTN.

However as the study on injuries explicitly says it includes boundary roads, they must have used the boundary roads as well as the ltn ones.
How do you know which roads have been excluded?
 
Right Sorry i missed that part.

That journal article is the one i lined to and as far as i can see it doesn't give a list of roads they included.

A couple of sentences after the one you highlighted they say that they included boundary roads in a separate set which they didn't need to look at for that study because it was about who lives in an LTN.

However as the study on injuries explicitly says it includes boundary roads, they must have used the boundary roads as well as the ltn ones.
How do you know which roads have been excluded?
From what I can see, that study refers back to the “equity” study and that is where the definition of boundary roads comes from.

In more general terms, I don’t really get why boundary roads aren’t generally included. LTNs decrease traffic inside LTNs. That seems pretty self explanatory. On that basis, their impact on surrounding roads seems to be the most pertinent issue and goes to the heart of the division in the community. The reason why some people are so upset about this is that they don’t get the benefit but have to deal with the downside. I think it is this lack of equity which people find most frustrating.
 
I may have figured this out.

Eg in Lee Green 3 of 4 boundary roads weren’t included in the data

I believe the complaint orginates from One Lewisham. Their complaint is not that this research has ignored certain roads, but that the council measurements have missed certain roads.




This is, I believe, relevant to this part of the study.

Analyses of injuries on LTN boundary roads identified no changes in absolute injury numbers (e.g. ratio 1.05, p=0.35 for injuries among all travel modes compared with the rest of London). Risk per trip is likely also to have changed little, given that monitoring reports indicate that changes on boundary roads in cycling and motor vehicle traffic were relatively similar to the background trend.

So there's very little change in the number of injuries in absolute terms, on boundary roads. And using the data from Lewisham council, the risk per trip is about the same, because the number of cars passing is about the same. But if they're right, and the council is wrong, and the number of vehicles has gone up dramatically, then the risk per trip is lower. [Maths experts please check this]
 
Anyone been up The Strand llately. Seems they are getting an LTN with knobs on - something Lambeth could only dream of
This is a great idea* but in no sense is it an LTN.

(*for pedestrians - cycling provision seems poor)
 
From what I can see, that study refers back to the “equity” study and that is where the definition of boundary roads comes from.

In more general terms, I don’t really get why boundary roads aren’t generally included. LTNs decrease traffic inside LTNs. That seems pretty self explanatory. On that basis, their impact on surrounding roads seems to be the most pertinent issue and goes to the heart of the division in the community. The reason why some people are so upset about this is that they don’t get the benefit but have to deal with the downside. I think it is this lack of equity which people find most frustrating.
Do you have any research yourself about what happens on surrounding roads?.
 
From what I can see, that study refers back to the “equity” study and that is where the definition of boundary roads comes from.

In more general terms, I don’t really get why boundary roads aren’t generally included. LTNs decrease traffic inside LTNs. That seems pretty self explanatory. On that basis, their impact on surrounding roads seems to be the most pertinent issue and goes to the heart of the division in the community. The reason why some people are so upset about this is that they don’t get the benefit but have to deal with the downside. I think it is this lack of equity which people find most frustrating.

So my reading of it all is this:

The equity study mapped out areas of London which had had LTNs put in between, from memory, March to Sept 2020 and were still in place in Oct 2020 (I stand to be corrected on those dates but essentially they look to find all the ones recently implemented that hadn't been removed by the time they did that study, then excluded LTNs which did not have pre-pandemic data to compare to).
They created three sets of roads:
1) Inside LTNs
2) LTN Boundary Roads
3) Roads unconnected to an LTN

The equity study sought to answer the question "who lives inside the new LTN areas?" and as such it's obvious why they wouldn't need to consider boundary roads or unconnected roads and excluded them.

The safety study took all three sets of roads and examined all of them to see how road safety has been affected.
The tweet liquidindian has found refers to the data they used on traffic levels, which that guy says excluded certain roads. Looking at the table in the supplemental information he obviously knows where those numbers come from and that they aren't complete.
Thing is that it doesn't matter to their main claim which is about absolute numbers, not risk per trip. In their methodology they are clear about how they do this:

2. Methods​

We used police injury data, which gives information on the travel mode and injury severity of road traffic injuries, plus detailed geographical coordinates for the crash location. [2] Our primary outcome was number of injuries of any severity, both in total and by mode of travel. We present secondary analyses examining killed or seriously injured (KSI).

We used information from a range of official sources to map all new modal filters implemented from March-September 2020 in London and still in place at the end of October 2020.[3] Based on these we manually mapped 72 LTNs and surrounding boundary roads (details in Aldred et al., n.d.: see Figures 1 and 2). We aggregated the point locations of all injuries into three mutually-exclusive groups:

  1. Injuries inside the LTN, defined as injuries at least 25m inside the LTN boundary.
  2. Injuries on LTN boundary roads, defined being located less than 25m from an LTN boundary road.
  3. All other injuries elsewhere in London (our comparison group).
We made pre/post comparisons of injury numbers in these LTN groups between October-December 2018 and October-December 2019 (‘pre’) versus October-December 2020 (‘post’). Using Fisher’s exact chi-squared tests we compared trends inside LTNs (group 1) and on boundary roads (group 2) to trends in injuries elsewhere in London (group 3).

So what that says to me is that to get the number of injuries, they have used all three sets of roads from the equity study. This is not the same set of roads that was used for the traffic data. There is no evidence that any LTN boundary roads are excluded from this data set, in fact the equity study says it includes all roads within 25m of an LTN implementation.

The numbers they give, from which the headline is derived, takes these roads and uses GPS data to identify which injuries happened on which roads. This is the only hard data they give.

Then they give their estimations on risk per trip, which uses the traffic data set and judges by LTN as a whole. Now the guy in the tweet knows where this traffic data came from and that it excluded certain roads and traffic is higher on those roads than this study thinks it is. I agree with liquidindian that means risk per trip has actually decreased, since the absolute number has remained the same.

Now I agree that all boundary roads should be included in a study which includes any boundary roads (unless it's look at a very specific situation obviously) and as far as I can see, this one did when it looked at the absolute number of injuries.
(for the set of LTNs that were in place recently, still in place and had comparable data from pre-pandemic times). The traffic data they used to make an estimation of risk per trip didn't and it obviously should have, assuming they have data from pre-pandemic times to use as a baseline anyway. But that doesn't make any difference to the absolute numbers which the headline refers to.
 
The equity study sought to answer the question "who lives inside the new LTN areas?" and as such it's obvious why they wouldn't need to consider boundary roads or unconnected roads and excluded them.
Just to be clear here (I may be repeating what you're saying) they did consider the boundary roads in this previous report, they were just careful to make sure that they were included as boundary roads and not as inside an LTN. This is what the methodology says, but a misreading has meant the meme (original Dawkins meaning) has evolved on Twitter and I assume various FB groups into "they don't consider boundary roads". I expect to see this along "she lives in an LTN, she's biased", "she's a cycling campaigner, she's biased" and "this is TFL marking its own work" as ways to dismiss studies from the Active Travel Academy. (Did you know that the Active Travel Academy is made up of people interested in active travel? I know, outrageous."
 
Here is what they actually say about injuries on boundary roads:

Analyses of injuries on LTN boundary roads identified no changes in absolute injury numbers (e.g. ratio 1.05, p=0.35 for injuries among all travel modes compared with the rest of London). Risk per trip is likely also to have changed little, given that monitoring reports indicate that changes on boundary roads in cycling and motor vehicle traffic were relatively similar to the background trend.[5]

The report doesn't seem to be making a claim about the situation on boundary roads that is pretending to have the full data that would allow a completely accurate 'risk' calculation to be made. Their suggestion that risk per trip is "likely also to have changed little" is based on accepting the "indication" in general monitoring data that changes on boundary roads have tended to follow the background trend for traffic across London.

Of course, that is contentious to anyone who suspects that those "monitoring reports" have not captured the true situation on boundary roads. And maybe they haven't. But even the fact that that data does not cover every single boundary road - whether the data covers 10% or 50% or 75% of boundary roads, what really matters is whether it's based on a representative sample, surely. You don't have to record the situation at every point to get an idea of the general trend. There are few situations where that is possible anyway.

So if anyone is doubting that "monitoring reports" data - then the issue is not really how many roads are missing from it, but whether the roads that haven't been monitored are disproportionately the "worst" roads that have seen increases in traffic. And that would have to come about by biased selection of monitoring locations, and it would seem to me to have to be quite deliberate.

By the way, I couldn't work out where the "supplemental tables" were, that are mentioned through the report.

But they are here (accessed via "data sets/files" link at the top of the report).

And here is the relevant explanation and table -

Screenshot 2021-07-25 at 21.14.31.jpg
 
The data and research is always just short of being convincing, isn't it? Oh, if only the researchers had looked into these other things, if only they'd gathered this extra data, then we might be convinced. Tomorrow we go back to comparing filtered roads to the Holocaust, but today we are reasonable people, chipping away at the edges of some research and declaring it Not Quite Enough, Sorry.
Comment of the thread!!!!
 
They seem a bit discombobulated at the moment



From the article:

“The driver involved in the collision pleaded guilty to a charge of driving without due care and attention, receiving six points on their licence a fine of £394 and court costs of £139.”
 
I'm convinced OLJ is just run by a lunatic at this point, first the holocaust now child sexual abuse, not to mention the sort of posts they like in their pathetic FB groupScreenshot 2021-07-28 171912.png
 
I don't get why the OLJ twitter account is sharing LTN consultations from areas way outside of Lambeth?
I was pleased to hear in the latest online Q and A that Lambeth will decide if the LTNs are to stay based on how well they meet their targets of traffic reduction, rather than the volume of requests to keep them vs remove them. They said quite clearly, it is not a referendum.
 
I love how these accounts always @ tons of other accounts in their tweets and still get no interaction.
One was asking Kier Starmer to DM him for info on how UK Labour was failing the borough. High on his ‘’must reply’ list I’m sure.

“I’m struggling to run my own political party against one of the worst governments we’ve had, so what I need is strategic advice from a FirstNameLotsofNumbers twitter account”
 
Lol, that's where i live. Ridiculous

Looks like interesting things heading your way.

(And, sorry, but the Birmingham antis are possibly the dimmest of the lot against some tough competition. Not the most unhinged, to be fair.)
 

Looks like interesting things heading your way.

(And, sorry, but the Birmingham antis are possibly the dimmest of the lot against some tough competition. Not the most unhinged, to be fair.)

Yeah, the council are pretty committed to cutting car journeys, especially in the city centre where the air quality is really bad.
 
Now they are seeing if they can shoehorn this into somehow being relevant to LTNs.


View attachment 280938
I doubt OneLambeth Justice will agree with the letter to the Guardian from Joan Twelves lambasting Boris's current Let it Rip Covid policy.

More evidence of Joan's bully boy tactics?

Personally I;m glad to see she can still write a good letter well into her seventies.
Her blog is interesting too Joan Twelves
 
I don't get why the OLJ twitter account is sharing LTN consultations from areas way outside of Lambeth?
I was pleased to hear in the latest online Q and A that Lambeth will decide if the LTNs are to stay based on how well they meet their targets of traffic reduction, rather than the volume of requests to keep them vs remove them. They said quite clearly, it is not a referendum.

I don't quite follow this. If this is what Lambeth are saying then what was the point of asking people to comment on the Commonplace websites, email concerns and go through the usual democratic channels?
 
I don't quite follow this. If this is what Lambeth are saying then what was the point of asking people to comment on the Commonplace websites, email concerns and go through the usual democratic channels?
I imagine the comments relate to issues on the ground that they can fix to make the LTNs work better/deal with problems eg in Streatham Hill residents flagged up the need for some extra filters to stop additional rat running, and others asked for changes to the CPZ to make it easier to park. Or suggestions for other related improvements like cycle parking etc. Comment saying 'i hate LTNs and want them removed' or 'i love LTNs let's keep them' isn't really any adding anything helpful since it's not a referendum as they said.
 
There was initially the thing where TfL said they'd only fund schemes where the LA could show there was general support locally (or something like that). But has that basically been superceded by the fact that funding now can come from central govt?
 
A good example is the Upper Norwood LTN, which when it returns, as mostly ANPR, will have its bus gate moved to outside the doctors' surgery, so that people can access it without going through the gate. People flagged up a problem, a solution was found.
 
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