Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
so you are against all Tory central government spending and would be in favour of all labour central gov spending ?
John Schofield
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure it is helpful to argue this issue on the basis of which side is in the majority.
Cyclists may outnumber disabled residents but the impact on the latter might outweigh the benefits to the former.
It is at least conceivable that an LTN might lower pollution from an already relatively low level for a majority of people while increasing it to a dangerous level for a minority in surrounding streets. A significant detriment to the minority and a negligible benefit for the majority.
Now for all I know a majority of disabled residents may favour the LTN, and my pollution scenario is purely hypothetical. But I'm not clear how we establish any of this without open scrutiny, debate and evaluation and I'm not sure I trust Lambeth Council to participate in that with good faith. Apart from anything else, I believe they have made a fair bit of money from LTN's.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Motorists may outnumber disabled residents but the impacts of the status quo on the latter might outweigh the benefits to the former.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
The thing is that these measures, modal filters etc have been around for decades and they existed in Brixton previously. It’s not hypothetical or a matter of debate whether they work or not, it’s just that they’ve been introduced on a number of new locations.
Collateral Dama
Member
Where do you live on Ferndale Road? You’ve taken a photo on the western end, which is where I live. The eastern/Brixton end of the road was part of a rat run prior to the LTN, as were Concanon and Sandmere Roads. The rat runs have been moved to Ferndale Road West, as it’s come to be called. The eastern end of the road (which is much wider) might be the same as before or better. I don’t know. But it would be disingenuous as a resident of the eastern part of the road to try to speak for the residents of the western end. And if Ferndale Road generally
is quieter following the introduction of the LTN, why did the council then introduce a new filter on Ferndale Road some eight or nine months after the LTN was introduced? This is what Lambeth Council gave as the reason (as you’ll know as a resident of Ferndale Road, having received one of these flyers):
The data referred to comes from the monitoring report:
So it’s your comment that doesn’t ring true. I can’t comprehend how anyone who lives on the western part of Ferndale Road can honestly say such a thing. Nothing like what has happened since this LTN was introduced happened before it, at least not in the 24 years that I’ve lived here.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Collateral Dama how are vehicles getting onto Ferndale West? Could you describe their route please as I’m a bit confused.
Ta
Ta
teuchter
je suis teuchter
As far as I understand it's the green portion of this map.
So all the traffic for the west portion of Ferndale Rd plus a few other streets off it, accesses it from that one point at its west (Clapham) end.
That's in theory though assuming all the filters are working.
Collateral Dama 's view I think is that this setup generates too much excess traffic even with the filters working. That seems surprising to me and I am inclined to think that if all the filters were working properly you would not be seeing a problem.
The graphs posted above are from before the filter halfway along Ferndale was introduced, I think. If I've got it right, prior to that the 'blue' and 'green' areas were not separated.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
OK so you can get into it from the west end of Ferndale Rd but you will be fined (if the filters are working) if you leave it by any route other than back the way you came, is that right?
I too cannot see where the problem arises. Please could you explain what you mean by “rat run” Collateral Dama - where are the vehicle going.
There has been talk of Ferndale Rd becoming a cut through for HGVs but that cannot happen if the Ferndale East filter is properly enforced.
Nothing I have read yet persuades me that the LTN is fundamentally flawed. Instead it needs proper enforcement and fixing of the vandalism.
I too cannot see where the problem arises. Please could you explain what you mean by “rat run” Collateral Dama - where are the vehicle going.
There has been talk of Ferndale Rd becoming a cut through for HGVs but that cannot happen if the Ferndale East filter is properly enforced.
Nothing I have read yet persuades me that the LTN is fundamentally flawed. Instead it needs proper enforcement and fixing of the vandalism.
Collateral Dama
Member
You’re right on all counts except the above map is incorrect in that the green area above, which comprises the cul-de-sac that has been created, should extend further west as the filter has been placed nearly at the railway bridge. So it includes the Edmundsbury estate, another smaller estate and the Duke of Edinburgh pub. Including the side streets, that covers a lot of houses, flats, cars and deliveries. On top of which is the exemption being given to the largest lorries (M&S, Superdrug and possibly others) to drive through the Ferndale Road filter.
Collateral Dama
Member
If the filters were working then I agree that there would no longer be a ”rat run”. But as Teuchter said, I still believe that there would be far more traffic on the western end of Ferndale Road as a result of the LTN as currently configured. It would be a huge cul-de-sac with one way in and one way out. Whether the vehicles passing by were “rat running” or not, there would be too many of them, including HGVs that are granted an exemption to pass through the filter.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I fully support the removal of the exemption for HGVs. The email you reproduced in post #4,547 set out a very narrow exemption for HGVs unable to turn into Bellefields Rd. If HGVs are abusing this exemption to use Ferndale as an east-west cut-through then it needs to be enforced properly. I would be interested however to see data for HGV use. I cycle past the western end of Ferndale Rd multiple times a week and have not noticed any HGVs exiting Ferndale onto Bedford.
Similarly I cannot see that the creation of the LTN should increase the number of vehicles coming into the cul-de-sac (as you describe it) and then exiting. Why would they do this?
What I suspect is happening is that some vehicles are ignoring the filters on Ferndale East/Colcannon Rd and still using the LTN as a cut-through (I have seen this multiple times). However the total number of vehicles passing through will be much lower than pre-LTN.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
There are a bunch of streets that now are forced to use the west end of Ferndale rd, sure, but then there are a bunch of streets, that could previously use it and now can't at all. It ought to roughly balance out. It seems much more plausible that the problems are caused by unenforced filters.
Brian Taylor
Active Member
We have a similar problem here in the north bit of Shakespeare Rd. Now a long cul-de-sac with 3 businesses (Network Rail, Veolia and Norris) using us as the sole access road for all their HGVs.
Collateral Dama
Member
Pre-LTN there were various routes to get to Tintern Road, for example, or Ducie Road, but now the only way to reach them is via the western end of Ferndale Road, which is the narrowest part of the road. Once (if) the filters are truly operational, every vehicle wanting to access or leave any of the properties in the map shown above will have to pass through the western part of Ferndale Road. This includes a couple of estates, a very busy pub (with many taxis at closing time), all the deliveries that people get now — and I’m becoming acutely aware of how many that is — including a corner shop that serves as an Amazon deliver/pick-up point. Additionally, Ubers have started to use Tintern Road as a place to pick up fares from Sandmere Road and other roads that are now difficult to access. Those taxis need to go in and out via Ferndale Road. Before the LTN those vehicles could have come in from the Brixton end of Ferndale or on any of the roads leading from Acre Lane or via Sandmere. Now there is only one route: Ferndale Road West. Regarding the exemption for HGVs, we don’t know how big or small it is but we’re trying to find out. As you may know, a hotel is being planned on the Superdrug site. How big will the lorries associated with the building be and will they be exempt? Regarding the HGVs, I’m not saying that they’re always present but they are certainly a daily occurrence. I took this photo this morning:
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I wish you all the best getting rid of the HGVs.
Collateral Dama
Member
You might think so but the western end of Ferndale Road was not the busy road in this area, it was Sandmere, Concanon and the eastern end of Ferndale Road. Now the western end of Ferndale Road is by far the busiest. The other roads have been made better or very much better and we’ve been made much worse. It isn’t fair. For much of the day the traffic has become incessant. People who have lived here for a long time, including me, want to leave. I hope you’re right that it will eventually balance out if the filters can be made to work but I’m doubtful, as I’ve said, as are a lot of my neighbours.
Brian Taylor
Active Member
A correction. Veolias bin lorries have an exemption and are allowed through.
So, the claims that exemptions are too costly or difficult to be given to the disabled or hospital patient transfers or anyone else somehow evaporate when it's Veolia or M&S or Lambeths own vehicles.
ash
Inittogether
I can only comment on my experience and I have been here 15 years. I live between Tintern and Bedford and one of the main complainers on one Lambeth posts videos of the Bedford end.
I cannot say that I have seen any more HGV’s but agree they should not use Ferndale. We don’t have double glazing at the front and I can honestly say I only hear beeping or alcetrations once or twice a month (no different from before the LTN) despite what I’m hearing about on one Lambeth.
I cannot say that I have seen any more HGV’s but agree they should not use Ferndale. We don’t have double glazing at the front and I can honestly say I only hear beeping or alcetrations once or twice a month (no different from before the LTN) despite what I’m hearing about on one Lambeth.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I know some people will find this with some justification a very irritating comment but in all this I've wondered whether there is an effect at play where people that didn't really pay much attention to traffic before are now paying a lot of attention because it's become an issue. If you are unhappy about the LTNs in general then you might start becoming hyperaware of traffic on your street and get the impression it's got loads worse when nothing much has actually changed. There's plenty of precedent for this kind of effect in other contexts. Of course, if this is plausible then so is the reverse...if you want LTNs to work you might be in denial of an increase. But maybe it can explain why people living on the same street can report totally different experiences.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I see One Lambeth have written open letter to the new leader asking for ending of Cabinet system and replacing it with the Committee system.
www.brixtonbuzz.com
I agree with this letter
One Lambeth asks new Council Leader to ditch Cabinet system and replace it with democratic committees at the Town Hall
One Lambeth has written to new Lambeth Leader Cllr Claire Holland asking her to scrap the Cabinet system of local government.
www.brixtonbuzz.com
I agree with this letter
Southlondon
The river's there for a reason
For the committee system to work effectively it really needs a larger opposition than the non-labour party candidates seem to be able to manage between them. Committee make up should represent the proportions of the opposition parties so you’d have like 1 opposition member on each committee maybe. I think possibly for Lambeth the cabinet system with effective scrutiny might still be the best system. If it was the committee system the Labour block would still totally dominate the committees and their will would be done.I see One Lambeth have written open letter to the new leader asking for ending of Cabinet system and replacing it with the Committee system.
One Lambeth asks new Council Leader to ditch Cabinet system and replace it with democratic committees at the Town Hall
One Lambeth has written to new Lambeth Leader Cllr Claire Holland asking her to scrap the Cabinet system of local government.
I agree with this letter
John Schofield
Well-Known Member
Prompted by your comment I did a google search. You're quite right that there is a lot of evidence although the biggest study appears to be 20 years old. I don't see any studies saying that LTN's are a bad thing (and I don't hold that view myself) but they do note potential adverse impacts. In relation to my previous post these include the adverse effect on surrounding roads and on the disabled. Transport For All are not entirely happy with the current policy - Pave The Way - 4 months on » Transport for All - and have lobbied/are lobbying for changes to LTN's such as blue badge exemption and greater engagement with people who have protected charactersistics. There are also options for manging the additional traffic on neighbouring roads. More generally, as Transport For All point out, the devil is in the detail - a proposed scheme needs to be evaluated on its own merits, not just a broad principle. I don't think Lambeth have done enough in terms of consultation and evaluation in this case.
Brian Taylor
Active Member
ash
Inittogether
You insinuated that other people should have exemptions as the bin men do. There is no reason why IMO. If you are disabled it may take a bit longer but you can still get to where you need to be in the comfort of your car if you choose that means of transport. I live with a disabled person who cannot drive due to his disability and I don’t either. The LTN has improved the quality of our experience walking around Ferndale. I really don’t believe that all these anti LTN people give a toss about most people with disabilities. I also find it fascinating that everyone who is anti LTN has a disability or has to visit several frail or disabled people every day.
One of the main campaigners against Ferndale LTN lives on Tintern and is furious as it takes longer to drive to her business on Acre Lane others are annoyed as it takes longer to get to Tesco - it’s laughable. So many angry people (drivers) if it wasn’t LTN’s it would be something else.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
If anything the problem has gotten worse in the past 20 years, from 2008 on traffic has doubled on residential roads, driven by satnav.
'Rat-running' increases on residential UK streets as experts blame satnav apps
Motoring on minor roads doubled between 2009 and 2019, regional figures reveal
Surely less traffic would benefit everyone?
ash
Inittogether
I’m not doing so but the anti-LTN’s tend to hence the use of a disabled woman as their figurehead. At the ‘protest’ at Windrush they hadn’t even considered the fact the she couldn’t access the stage in her wheelchair
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