Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[nagapie]

I’m not doing so but the anti-LTN’s tend to hence the use of a disabled woman as their figurehead. At the ‘protest’ at Windrush they hadn’t even considered the fact the she couldn’t access the stage in her wheelchair .

But you did say that you live with a disabled person and they're fine, the implication is then that it's fine for all. Also that it just takes longer to get somewhere. Apart from just making things that much easier to make life fairer, there are people with complex medical condtions who have seizures, stop breathing, etc who need journeys to be short, people with complex health and mobility needs for whom travel is uncomfortable, people for whom the sensory aspect of travelling can lead to violent and distressing behaviour. That's just some examples, there are many reasons to have a shorter journey for people with disabliites but as hard as those reasons are, making life fairer is enough.
You don't go against what is fair just because you hate One Lambeth.

 

[ash]

But you did say that you live with a disabled person and they're fine, the implication is then that it's fine for all. Also that it just takes longer to get somewhere. Apart from just making things that much easier to make life fairer, there are people with complex medical condtions who have seizures, stop breathing, etc who need journeys to be short, people with complex health and mobility needs for whom travel is uncomfortable, people for whom the sensory aspect of travelling can lead to violent and distressing behaviour. That's just some examples, there are many reasons to have a shorter journey for people with disabliites but as hard as those reasons are, making life fairer is enough.
You don't go against what is fair just because you hate One Lambeth.

Fair enough maybe there is justification for blue badge holders to have exemptions. I just can’t stand the vitriole behind One Lambeth. I certainly don’t want to be equally vitriolic.

 

[Gramsci]

I’m not doing so but the anti-LTN’s tend to hence the use of a disabled woman as their figurehead. At the ‘protest’ at Windrush they hadn’t even considered the fact the she couldn’t access the stage in her wheelchair .

So you are saying Sophia the disabled lady taking Lambeth to court is just a "figurehead" being used cynically by One Lambeth. That she has no agency of her own?

I was at the Windrush Square demo. Were you?

I saw Sophia speak. She imo was very happy with the support One Lambeth were giving her.

Do you think any of the pro LTN groups would have given her support to take Lambeth on?

 

[John Schofield]

If anything the problem has gotten worse in the past 20 years, from 2008 on traffic has doubled on residential roads, driven by satnav.

'Rat-running' increases on residential UK streets as experts blame satnav apps

Motoring on minor roads doubled between 2009 and 2019, regional figures reveal

www.theguardian.com

Surely less traffic would benefit everyone?

Maybe but per my original post any particular scheme may have negligible benefit for the majority and a significant detriment for a minority. I don't know if that is so in this case but proper and transparent evaluation would tell us if it is optimal or whether adjustments are needed to make it so.

 

[Gramsci]

You insinuated that other people should have exemptions as the bin men do. There is no reason why IMO. If you are disabled it may take a bit longer but you can still get to where you need to be in the comfort of your car if you choose that means of transport. I live with a disabled person who cannot drive due to his disability and I don’t either. The LTN has improved the quality of our experience walking around Ferndale. I really don’t believe that all these anti LTN people give a toss about most people with disabilities. I also find it fascinating that everyone who is anti LTN has a disability or has to visit several frail or disabled people every day.
One of the main campaigners against Ferndale LTN lives on Tintern and is furious as it takes longer to drive to her business on Acre Lane others are annoyed as it takes longer to get to Tesco - it’s laughable. So many angry people (drivers) if it wasn’t LTN’s it would be something else.

Pave The Way - 4 months on » Transport for All

Pave The Way : 4 months on Our Pave The Way report remains the only in-depth and independent piece of research into the impacts of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods on disabled people, and has proven to be an invaluable resource to so many. We had several goals when we embarked on this campaign. We...

www.transportforall.org.uk

Transport for All posted up by John Schofield are lobbying for Blue Badge dispensation.

chowce5382 said One Lambeth deputation to the Council had asked for this and it was turned down.

If this Progress Council had wanted to listen and comprimise it was no brainer to do this. Tactically would have undermined One Lambeth.

But that's not the way Progress led Lambeth operates.

Its what Brian Taylor meant. Lambeth can do this. Its technically feasible if they are doing it for their rubbish collection vehicles. Must be able to be extended to blue badge holders. So why won't Lambeth do it?

From Transport for All website.

Several infrastructure changes have been made to Low Traffic Neighbourhoods on a local level. Ealing now allows dispensation for Blue Badge holders driving through the LTN. Boroughs including Sutton and Croydon will be introducing ANPR cameras in existing LTNS, and in other areas such as Harrow and Hammersmith consultations are open on future planned LTNs that will use ANPRs from the offset.

 

[Gramsci]

A correction. Veolias bin lorries have an exemption and are allowed through.
So, the claims that exemptions are too costly or difficult to be given to the disabled or hospital patient transfers or anyone else somehow evaporate when it's Veolia or M&S or Lambeths own vehicles.

I wonder how Veolia got an exemption? They are private company with a contract with Council. If a private company can get exemption why not others?

If the pro LTN argument is that LTNs cause in reality little inconvenience to business why do Veolia get exemption?

Surely Council should not give them exemption. Say that domestic rubbish collection is perfectly feasible within LTNs.

This would set an example.

 

[Collateral Dama]

I can only comment on my experience and I have been here 15 years. I live between Tintern and Bedford and one of the main complainers on one Lambeth posts videos of the Bedford end.
I cannot say that I have seen any more HGV’s but agree they should not use Ferndale. We don’t have double glazing at the front and I can honestly say I only hear beeping or alcetrations once or twice a month (no different from before the LTN) despite what I’m hearing about on one Lambeth.

How many motorbikes did you see driving on the pavement on Ferndale Road before the LTN was introduced?

 

[Collateral Dama]

I know some people will find this with some justification a very irritating comment but in all this I've wondered whether there is an effect at play where people that didn't really pay much attention to traffic before are now paying a lot of attention because it's become an issue. If you are unhappy about the LTNs in general then you might start becoming hyperaware of traffic on your street and get the impression it's got loads worse when nothing much has actually changed. There's plenty of precedent for this kind of effect in other contexts. Of course, if this is plausible then so is the reverse...if you want LTNs to work you might be in denial of an increase. But maybe it can explain why people living on the same street can report totally different experiences.

Videos and data such as that provided by Lambeth can help as a reality check.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Maybe but per my original post any particular scheme may have negligible benefit for the majority and a significant detriment for a minority. I don't know if that is so in this case but proper and transparent evaluation would tell us if it is optimal or whether adjustments are needed to make it so.

I thought Lambeth were evaluating them?. Are you a traffic expert?.

 

[chowce5382]

I’m not doing so but the anti-LTN’s tend to hence the use of a disabled woman as their figurehead. At the ‘protest’ at Windrush they hadn’t even considered the fact the she couldn’t access the stage in her wheelchair .

We had considered that and asked Sofia what she would like. We consulted with her if you will. She said that she was more than happy to have the stage as I was and not to use it. Given that I was the person who spoke to her about it I’d be grateful if you wouldn’t just make things up/lie

 

[chowce5382]

So you are saying Sophia the disabled lady taking Lambeth to court is just a "figurehead" being used cynically by One Lambeth. That she has no agency of her own?

I was at the Windrush Square demo. Were you?

I saw Sophia speak. She imo was very happy with the support One Lambeth were giving her.

Do you think any of the pro LTN groups would have given her support to take Lambeth on?

Just to give a bit more context to this, OneLambethJustice started up as a result of meeting Sofia. Three of us started talking, one of who is a close friend and lives very near Sofia, and started to discuss the impact on her life.

 

[chowce5382]

Pave The Way - 4 months on » Transport for All

Pave The Way : 4 months on Our Pave The Way report remains the only in-depth and independent piece of research into the impacts of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods on disabled people, and has proven to be an invaluable resource to so many. We had several goals when we embarked on this campaign. We...

www.transportforall.org.uk

Transport for All posted up by John Schofield are lobbying for Blue Badge dispensation.

chowce5382 said One Lambeth deputation to the Council had asked for this and it was turned down.

If this Progress Council had wanted to listen and comprimise it was no brainer to do this. Tactically would have undermined One Lambeth.

But that's not the way Progress led Lambeth operates.

Its what Brian Taylor meant. Lambeth can do this. Its technically feasible if they are doing it for their rubbish collection vehicles. Must be able to be extended to blue badge holders. So why won't Lambeth do it?

From Transport for All website.

We must remember that blue badge exemption won’t help carers (some of whom have now had to stop visiting due to the amount of time
Journeys are taking) and also doesn’t look at the other vulnerable groups. That’s why you always need to undertake a full consultation and EQIA

 

[ash]

How many motorbikes did you see driving on the pavement on Ferndale Road before the LTN was introduced?

None before and none after

 

[edcraw]

Just to give a bit more context to this, OneLambethJustice started up as a result of meeting Sofia. Three of us started talking, one of who is a close friend and lives very near Sofia, and started to discuss the impact on her life.

So you only looked at legal action after meeting Sofia?

 

[chowce5382]

I thought

So you only looked at legal action after meeting Sofia?

Yes, for my part. Very little point in progressing with legal action if there is no client or example of the point for which concerned

 

[edcraw]

Yes, for my part. Very little point in progressing with legal action if there is no client or example of the point for which concerned

This was pretty widely shared at the time & you were against these schemes from the off.

 

[chowce5382]

This was pretty widely shared at the time.

View attachment 272166

Yup, look at the very bottom of this…”Each LTN” there are a number of LTNs in Lambeth alone. We were going to try and get a different client for each different LTN but the cost was going to be so prohibitive that we were never you to be able to raise money to support that many clients. Lambeth know this so we decided that, after speaking to Sofía if she was comfortable with being the only client, we would stay with her as the only client. I hope that helps to clear things up

 

[Gramsci]

This was pretty widely shared at the time & you were against these schemes from the off.

View attachment 272166

So what are you saying?

Is your argument that One Lambeth are using disability in improper way? That the legal action they are supporting has ulterior motives?

So what do you want? That the law to be tightened up to make it more difficult for cases like this to proceed?

This case would not be proceeding if their was not a case to answer. That had to be proven first to avoid time wasting. Are you saying that hurdle should be made higher?

We do live in a democracy, however flawed it is, the Sophia case is under present law legitimate case to bring.

The main problem is cost. Lambeth has the funds the ordinary citizen does not.

 

[Gramsci]

Picked up flier in my local off license. Court day is June 9th.

 

[edcraw]

So what are you saying?

Is your argument that One Lambeth are using disability in improper way? That the legal action they are supporting has ulterior motives?

So what do you want? That the law to be tightened up to make it more difficult for cases like this to proceed?

This case would not be proceeding if their was not a case to answer. That had to be proven first to avoid time wasting. Are you saying that hurdle should be made higher?

We do live in a democracy, however flawed it is, the Sophia case is under present law legitimate case to bring.

The main problem is cost. Lambeth has the funds the ordinary citizen does not.

As people have said before I think most donating aren’t doing so to help people with disabilities but as a way of getting rid of LTNs. You just have to look at the comments on the fundraising page.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yup, look at the very bottom of this…”Each LTN” there are a number of LTNs in Lambeth alone. We were going to try and get a different client for each different LTN but the cost was going to be so prohibitive that we were never you to be able to raise money to support that many clients. Lambeth know this so we decided that, after speaking to Sofía if she was comfortable with being the only client, we would stay with her as the only client. I hope that helps to clear things up

So your legal action is only against one LTN?.

 

[Gramsci]

As people have said before I think most donating aren’t doing so to help people with disabilities but as a way of getting rid of LTNs. You just have to look at the comments on the fundraising page.

So are you saying that the law should be tightened up to make it more difficult to take this kind of action?

 

[chowce5382]

As people have said before I think most donating aren’t doing so to help people with disabilities but as a way of getting rid of LTNs. You just have to look at the comments on the fundraising page.

Ed, I think you were trying to say that we were just raising money to get rid of them and then only stumbled across Sofia later on. Thats what you were asserting or at least seemed to be. I’ve set you right in that one and why we were asking for other clients. You can obviously still read into why people are giving money but the fact is that they are and I’m pretty sure that you don’t know their motives for giving.

 

[edcraw]

So are you saying that the law should be tightened up to make it more difficult to take this kind of action?

No - and struggle to see where you got that from.

Ed, I think you were trying to say that we were just raising money to get rid of them and then only stumbled across Sofia later on. Thats what you were asserting or at least seemed to be. I’ve set you right in that one and why we were asking for other clients. You can obviously still read into why people are giving money but the fact is that they are and I’m pretty sure that you don’t know their motives for giving.

I’ve read many of the large number of comments on your fundraising and struggle to see any mention of people with disabilities.

 

[chowce5382]

So your legal action is only against one LTN?.

No, it’s against a number of different LTNs within Lambether which were implemented in a number different ways and so we have challenged them because Lambeth did not implement every LTN in the say way and so we have chosen a cross representative section. We decided on having one “client” for a couple of reasons. One of those was cost but the other one was that Sofia’s situation amply seemed to lay out why LTNs are discriminatory against disabled people and that she is an example of other disabled people in Lambeth in a similar situation

 

[chowce5382]

No - and struggle to see where you got that from.

I’ve read many of the large number of comments on your fundraising and struggle to see any mention of people with disabilities.

Ok. I know exactly why we’re going to court

 

[edcraw]

Ok. I know exactly why we’re going to court

But it seems your donors don’t.

 

[chowce5382]

But it seems your donors don’t.

That’s your read of it. We have said again and again why we are doing it.

It seems your issue is focused on the motivation for people donating rather than the reason why a disabled woman is having to take the executive to court for discriminating against her. Just seems a strange focus given that a judge has allowed the case to go ahead. I would have thought you’d be more worried about a council possibly acting unlawfully

 

[Gramsci]

No - and struggle to see where you got that from.

I’ve read many of the large number of comments on your fundraising and struggle to see any mention of people with disabilities.

It is a clear question to you.

As you obviously feel this legal action has ulterior motives are you in favour of tighter restrictions in how cases like this can proceed? Restrictions that look more closely at "ulterior" motives. Then judge that a case is not being brought in good faith.

 

[edcraw]

It is a clear question to you.

As you obviously feel this legal action has ulterior motives are you in favour of tighter restrictions in how cases like this can proceed? Restrictions that look more closely at "ulterior" motives. Then judge that a case is not being brought in good faith.

I said no, I’m not - and struggle to see why you think I would be.

I am concerned that £35k needs to be raised for this and legal aid isn’t available but I don’t really kn the legal process, but obv legal aid has been heavily restricted.

Also concerned that the money is being raised from people who could be very disappointed even if they win.

There should be better ways to find out if councils are acting illegally.