Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[teuchter]

Well it prompted me to go and have a look what other nonsense that Cristo chap was putting on twitter, and the first thing I find is him linking to a rambling Daily Mail article that mentions a new report that it claims proves that LTNs are increasing congestion. So I looked for the original report, which I can't actually find online anywhere, but I could find this article with a different take on the results

Traffic in London is up by 30 per cent since before the Covid-19 pandemic, study shows

Regions that have seen an increase in traffic are generally densely populated areas that have traditionally relied heavily on public transport

inews.co.uk

In short (if you accept the interretation), in places like London that traditionally rely on a large proportion of people using public transport to get around, even a small portion of those people switching journeys to private car rapidly leads to congestion, and that's what we see evidence of, compared to places where everyone always uses cars anyway, so not much has changed other than a bit of a reduction due to WFH.

This all entirely justifies the strategy that London has adopted, to try and strongly discourage people from switching to private cars in response to the pandemic, because it simply doesn't and can't work in densely populated areas. If you want to live somewhere where everyone can drive, you have to move to suburbia or the countryside.

 

[edcraw]

Sorry I don't see the relevance of this to the thread topic.

There’s a lot of misinformation about LTNs and so think it’s useful to know how reliable the sources are - Cristo regularly reports on LTNs.

Here’s a clip of him explaining this segment, which suggests he doesn’t do a lot of fact checking before reporting on something and doesn’t see that as much of an issue.



Happy to delete these posts if too off topic.

 

[Brian Taylor]

Sorry I don't see the relevance of this to the thread topic.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[pave]

Shouldn't the roads around Railton Road be reopened while the end of Coldharbour Lane is closed? I had to drive via Herne Hill to get from Coldharbour Road to Tescos yesterday. With trips to France currently banned, it's essential to take advantage of the supermarket 25% off wine deals whenever they come up. As I was buying 36 bottles, surely even the most hard-hearted LTN supporter would consider that an essential journey!

Dave

 

[edcraw]

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’d attack his argument but not sure what it is apart from generally hating people not in cars.

 

[Rushy]

There’s a lot of misinformation about LTNs and so think it’s useful to know how reliable the sources are - Cristo regularly reports on LTNs.

Here’s a clip of him explaining this segment, which suggests he doesn’t do a lot of fact checking before reporting on something and doesn’t see that as much of an issue.



Happy to delete these posts if too off topic.

It's a late night shock jock call in show. The format and its weaknesses are as old as the hills. It's hardly a surprise that not every caller's contribution is immediately and fully fact checked. No one on here was paying any attention to it or discussing it, so why are you?

Is it a coincidence that on the day you signed up to Urban75 your first two posts were about the very same radio host Cristo and criticising the part he played in Simon Still's suspension from the board of LCC?

For those who have forgotten, Still was the chair of Lambeth Cyclists (part of LCC) and a key adviser to Lambeth Council's Clare Holland on LTNs. He had an unfortunately intolerant and unprofessional manner on Twitter which Cristo publicised resulting in him being suspended, signed up to racism awareness training and then resigning. I don't think there was any debate about the fact checking here: the LCC concluded and Simon Still admitted that his Twitter rants were racist and Lambeth declared them unacceptable. Cristo further accused Still of doxing, and of stalking him personally.

In those first posts of yours you cast doubt on Cristo's motivation for calling Simon Still out for making racists posts. It's not an entirely unfair point - if slightly irrelevant given that he was formally deemed to be accurate. Yet here you are apparently despairing at Cristo's reckless stoking of racial tensions with the Muslim community. On a Brixton LTN thread. Where Cristo and his views are otherwise not being discussed. Are you certain about your own motivations in bringing this up? Or are you just trying to drag everyone here into a bitter Twitter spat and settle a score in a "safe space"?

 

[edcraw]

Oh well - this looks fun, some positivity.

 

[BigTom]

Ad hominem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's not really an ad hominem when it's about questioning the reliability of a source.
If you can show that someone has lied about other topics, are they someone you should listen to about this one? I'd say probably not - their reliability as a source is questionable.

If you said "Cristo is a dick, s/he was rude to me one time", that would be ad hominem for sure but it's perfectly reasonable to ask about the reliability of sources and look at previous reporting from journalists to decide if they are worth paying attention to, or should be ignored - anything they say you will need other sources to verify, ones which are reliable, so just go with the reliable sources.

 

[Gramsci]

Oh well - this looks fun, some positivity.

I agree with what Rushy has posted.

I find your response insulting.

Are you going to answer any of Rushy questions?

 

[edcraw]

I agree with what Rushy has posted.

I find your response insulting.

Are you going to answer any of Rushy questions?

I wasn’t really sure what the questions were tbh.

I was lurking for ages here - I thought the turn Cristo took was pretty bad and if anything an ad hominem attack on pro LTN people. Making out that the LCC is somehow a racist organisation or something nefarious and that then LTNs are as well.

I thought he was being very disingenuous with this and thought it worthwhile pointing out that he’s hardly a reliable source.

I see LTNs as a progressive policy and find it interesting generally who the people are that are attacking them. I’m not saying they’re perfect but think it’s useful to see who the people are that are attacking them. There’s discussions to be had but people opposed (like OneLambeth) aren’t having those - it’s just rip them out.

Happy to have a proper discussion but when people like Tim Briggs & Cristo are talking about the ‘social injustice’ of LTNs I feel it’s worth pointing out their hypocrisy & it really does looks like they just care about this when it restricts their rights to drive wherever they want.

Please point out the people opposed to LTNs that are genuinely trying to improve actual problems but I struggle to find them.

 

[CH1]

I’m also hoping they’ll keep Atlantic and Coldharbour shut to cars after the works are complete. Central Brixton is a much more pleasant place to be with them closed.

Brixton BID was in favour of Coldharbour Lane becoming a beer garden even before Covid arrived.
A bit of lobbying Brewdog and Satay Bar - ie the BID chair - ought to set things on the right track, at least for you.

 

[Gramsci]

I wasn’t really sure what the questions were tbh.

I was lurking for ages here - I thought the turn Cristo took was pretty bad and if anything an ad hominem attack on pro LTN people. Making out that the LCC is somehow a racist organisation or something nefarious and that then LTNs are as well.

I thought he was being very disingenuous with this and thought it worthwhile pointing out that he’s hardly a reliable source.

I see LTNs as a progressive policy and find it interesting generally who the people are that are attacking them. I’m not saying they’re perfect but think it’s useful to see who the people are that are attacking them. There’s discussions to be had but people opposed (like OneLambeth) aren’t having those - it’s just rip them out.

Happy to have a proper discussion but when people like Tim Briggs & Cristo are talking about the ‘social injustice’ of LTNs I feel it’s worth pointing out their hypocrisy & it really does looks like they just care about this when it restricts their rights to drive wherever they want.

Please point out the people opposed to LTNs that are genuinely trying to improve actual problems but I struggle to find them.

I think the reason you have it in for Cristo is that he made known Simon Stills racist comments and aggressive online presence to the public. That is when you turned up here.

You say you having been lurking here. I've put up posts where I've pointed out from personal experience that not all people who are anti LTN are right wing and racist.

 

[editor]

Brixton BID was in favour of Coldharbour Lane becoming a beer garden even before Covid arrived.
A bit of lobbying Brewdog and Satay Bar - ie the BID chair - ought to set things on the right track, at least for you.

I think there's an argument for the closure of the central part of Coldharbour Lane but the BID's zero-consultation plan to close off he entire centre was an awful idea, driven by self interest.

 

[edcraw]

I think there's an argument for the closure of the central part of Coldharbour Lane but the BID's zero-consultation plan to close off he entire centre was an awful idea, driven by self interest.

Are there details of the plans, I can’t find them on their website?

The closure at them moment does seem to have caused terrible traffic.

 

[edcraw]

Cycled to Peckham today with my daughter through several LTNs and took just over 20mins. Would never have done that before and used to take nearly an hour with the walk to the train station.

 

[CH1]

I think there's an argument for the closure of the central part of Coldharbour Lane but the BID's zero-consultation plan to close off he entire centre was an awful idea, driven by self interest.

Agree about consultation. Regarding closing the town centre part of Coldharbour Lane, total closure would be detrimental to the popular P5 bus route - but allowing buses only would stop the opportunity for turning CHL-Central into some sort of Old Compton Street.

 

[CH1]

Are there details of the plans, I can’t find them on their website?

The closure at them moment does seem to have caused terrible traffic.

This was an aspiration floated by Brixton BID on behalf of local businesses a couple of years back. Nothing to do with the current LTN emergency Covid legislation craze.
The present closure of CHL is due to gas mains rrewal according to the contractors.

 

[Gramsci]

Are there details of the plans, I can’t find them on their website?

The closure at them moment does seem to have caused terrible traffic.

Brixton Playground - Brixton Bid

Reopening Brixton means reimagining the public realm for businesses, residences, customers and visitors alike. Brixton Playground would see the pedestrianisation…

brixtonbid.co.uk

Details of Brixton BID idea for a Brixton Playground.

 

[CH1]

Brixton Playground - Brixton Bid

Reopening Brixton means reimagining the public realm for businesses, residences, customers and visitors alike. Brixton Playground would see the pedestrianisation…

brixtonbid.co.uk

Details of Brixton BID idea for a Brixton Playground.

The map in that documentation shows Coldharbour Lane closed from the Ritzy to Gresham Road.
I reckon if that goes through you can say goodbye to the bus service to the Moorlands state and The Guinness Trust ie Electric Quarter.
I doubt the knobs who think up these schemes give a toss about pensioners and disabled people with no cars who use the bus for heavy shopping.

Who was it who said "Let them take cabs"? Marie Antoinette wasn't it - and look what happened to her.

 

[Ol Nick]

The map in that documentation shows Coldharbour Lane closed from the Ritzy to Gresham Road.
I reckon if that goes through you can say goodbye to the bus service to the Moorlands state and The Guinness Trust ie Electric Quarter.
I doubt the knobs who think up these schemes give a toss about pensioners and disabled people with no cars who use the bus for heavy shopping.

Who was it who said "Let them take cabs"? Marie Antoinette wasn't it - and look what happened to her.

Yeah. It’s a shame but it’s probably not feasible in the short term. We have to leave some roads open and the railway lines mean options are limited.

 

[Brian Taylor]

The map in that documentation shows Coldharbour Lane closed from the Ritzy to Gresham Road.
I reckon if that goes through you can say goodbye to the bus service to the Moorlands state and The Guinness Trust ie Electric Quarter.
I doubt the knobs who think up these schemes give a toss about pensioners and disabled people with no cars who use the bus for heavy shopping.

Who was it who said "Let them take cabs"? Marie Antoinette wasn't it - and look what happened to her.

Too many wheels on a cab, this is the new approved mode of transport

 

[teuchter]

I doubt the knobs who think up these schemes give a toss about pensioners and disabled people with no cars who use the bus for heavy shopping.

If only someone would think up a scheme that would make streets better for these people without cars. Perhaps you could try and substantially cut the amount of traffic on residential streets, to make them much easier to negotiate for people with mobility problems or in a wheelchair, or people doing their shopping using a trolley. Whether they are making their way to the bus stop or the shops. Perhaps you could have a system where you let buses continue to circulate freely on these streets, maybe even a bit more freely than before. Perhaps you can have something called a 'bus gate'. All just a crazy utopian dream though!

 

[teuchter]

Too many wheels on a cab, this is the new approved mode of transport
View attachment 261728

Once her servants have carried her home she'll be instructing them to off and vandalise some CCTV cameras so they can get her back slightly quicker next time. I would say that we have here an antecedent of a certain type of self important bloated SUV driver.

 

[CH1]

If only someone would think up a scheme that would make streets better for these people without cars. Perhaps you could try and substantially cut the amount of traffic on residential streets, to make them much easier to negotiate for people with mobility problems or in a wheelchair, or people doing their shopping using a trolley. Whether they are making their way to the bus stop or the shops. Perhaps you could have a system where you let buses continue to circulate freely on these streets, maybe even a bit more freely than before. Perhaps you can have something called a 'bus gate'. All just a crazy utopian dream though!

Once again the issue is displacement: what have the many Gresham Road residents done to get environmentally punished?
I bet if you count the number of residents proximate to Gresham Road it's twice or thrice those on your cherished booze strip of Coldharbour Lane.

 

[teuchter]

Once again the issue is displacement: what have the many Gresham Road residents done to get environmentally punished?
I bet if you count the number of residents proximate to Gresham Road it's twice or thrice those on your cherished booze strip of Coldharbour Lane.

I wasn't necessarily advocating for the coldharbour lane proposal but making a more general point, because I don't believe you are a big fan of the LTNs in principle despite their aim being to make things better for the groups of people you mention.

 

[nagapie]

I wasn't necessarily advocating for the coldharbour lane proposal but making a more general point, because I don't believe you are a big fan of the LTNs in principle despite their aim being to make things better for the groups of people you mention.

I don't believe that LTNs make things better for the majority of wheelchair users. Less traffic is probably one of the lower down issues that impacts on people getting around in wheelchairs. I think it will be very little help to this group at all so wish you would stop using them to make your point.

 

[Gramsci]

Quotes did not work

 

[Gramsci]

If only someone would think up a scheme that would make streets better for these people without cars. Perhaps you could try and substantially cut the amount of traffic on residential streets, to make them much easier to negotiate for people with mobility problems or in a wheelchair, or people doing their shopping using a trolley. Whether they are making their way to the bus stop or the shops. Perhaps you could have a system where you let buses continue to circulate freely on these streets, maybe even a bit more freely than before. Perhaps you can have something called a 'bus gate'. All just a crazy utopian dream though!

On post #4006 CH1 does advocate buses being allowed through. But correctly says that this proposal by BID does not include this.

 

[snowy_again]

If I remember it right no one on here supported the BID plans at the time. It was one of those rare moments of consensus. Anyway, it’s an irrelevance - it was a plan by some private enterprises to take over (well used) public roads blocking public transport to support their businesses.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I don't believe that LTNs make things better for the majority of wheelchair users. Less traffic is probably one of the lower down issues that impacts on people getting around in wheelchairs.

https://www.transportforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Pave-The-Way-full-report.pdf

This is a really good read, covering both the positive and negative aspects of LTN's and accessible travel for all.