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Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

Lambeth promised that full consultation would have taken place before any LTNs were put in place. This never happened. Lambeth used pandemic and saying it the government making them put these LTNs. Supposed to be emergency measures.
This is the main issue, no prior consultation to agree the methods of assessment and analysis. And so you get these outputs which can easily be spun whichever way you want. Further, I presume Lambeth got to control how The assessment was conducted and what to measure. All of which can be approached to get the answer you want.

That said, I would like to see proper evidence as well from One Lambeth onto their claims.

The whole thing is a mess and could have been avoided input Lambeth had not used the pandemic to push through a passion project.
 
This is the main issue, no prior consultation to agree the methods of assessment and analysis. And so you get these outputs which can easily be spun whichever way you want.
What's been measured is fairly basic. It's how many vehicles pass this point, in a number of locations. Those numbers, and the dates on which they were measured, have now been published.

The analysis that has been applied to them is not hugely complex or sophisticated. The outcome is that they simply don't show what has been pushed as a major, claimed downside of the scheme - large amounts of traffic getting displaced onto peripheral roads.

I don't actually see how you could spin the numbers to claim that. To be honest, I am a bit surprised by them - I might have expected them to show a moderate increase on many of the peripheral roads, and that I would be saying this is anticipated in the short term and we need to wait for the next stage of assessment before making kneejerk reactions. But in fact they show significant reductions in some places, and all of the increases are rather modest.

Everything is hugely complicated by the Covid impact of course - but the measurements were taken during a period where traffic in London generally had returned to levels close to what was the norm before, and the method they have used to adjust for this seems uncontroversial to me.

What alternative methods of assessment and analysis do you think prior consultation would have come up with? They seem to be using quite a conventional approach. The results are not the product of mathematical gymnastics - they are just simple counts of vehicles passing a location.

There are two further stages to come and we are yet to see how the picture looks at those points; I would say that any optimism at this stage should be cautious.
 
This is the main issue, no prior consultation to agree the methods of assessment and analysis. And so you get these outputs which can easily be spun whichever way you want. Further, I presume Lambeth got to control how The assessment was conducted and what to measure. All of which can be approached to get the answer you want.

That said, I would like to see proper evidence as well from One Lambeth onto their claims.

The whole thing is a mess and could have been avoided input Lambeth had not used the pandemic to push through a passion project.
You don’t trust Lambeth to not manipulate the findings so what does it matter when the LTNs were brought in?. You seem to have bias yourself, labelling it as a passion product.
 
Why are the idiots so obsessed by people being “consulted” about all this? Given the choice people are always going to kick back against things that might inconvenience them or force a change of behaviour in some way, even if it is for an overall benefit to others.

Fuck consulting, just get the damn things in place and let people get used to it.
 
You don’t trust Lambeth to not manipulate the findings so what does it matter when the LTNs were brought in?. You seem to have bias yourself, labelling it as a passion product.
I’m not saying Lambeth are manipulating the findings.

I am saying I find it problematic that there was no consultation and no predefined KPIs as to measure the success of LTNs against any pre-agreed criteria.

Lambeth are clearly pro-LTN and don’t waste a second to pat themselves on the back about how great they are, especially over Twitter, and are even shameless about spending 6k on that parklet that could have been put up for under 500£.

This to me is problematic as they are the ones sponsoring the research, which surprise surprise comes out all positive against criteria they decide.

Now OneLambeth are not unbiased either and spout a load of anecdotal evidence that is less convincing than anything Lambeth put up.

Personally, I am very pro-LTNs and would accept quite large disruption for the benefits they bring. However, when Lambeth next push through something it may not be something I agree with. I would much rather Lambeth were ambitious with LTNs, put in place a robust methodology for measuring outcomes BEFORE implementation and used that as a mandate to expand further.
 
What's been measured is fairly basic. It's how many vehicles pass this point, in a number of locations. Those numbers, and the dates on which they were measured, have now been published.

The analysis that has been applied to them is not hugely complex or sophisticated. The outcome is that they simply don't show what has been pushed as a major, claimed downside of the scheme - large amounts of traffic getting displaced onto peripheral roads.

I don't actually see how you could spin the numbers to claim that. To be honest, I am a bit surprised by them - I might have expected them to show a moderate increase on many of the peripheral roads, and that I would be saying this is anticipated in the short term and we need to wait for the next stage of assessment before making kneejerk reactions. But in fact they show significant reductions in some places, and all of the increases are rather modest.

Everything is hugely complicated by the Covid impact of course - but the measurements were taken during a period where traffic in London generally had returned to levels close to what was the norm before, and the method they have used to adjust for this seems uncontroversial to me.

What alternative methods of assessment and analysis do you think prior consultation would have come up with? They seem to be using quite a conventional approach. The results are not the product of mathematical gymnastics - they are just simple counts of vehicles passing a location.

There are two further stages to come and we are yet to see how the picture looks at those points; I would say that any optimism at this stage should be cautious.
From a post on Brixton Buzz, One Lambeth have FOI’d TFL to get the traffic camera data within the LTN and what they say is crucial to them - roads on the borders (which are covered in the Lambeth dataset and through the Aldred et al research) as they didn’t get the ‘it’s had a negative impact effect’ they wanted from the Lambeth data.

The person doing the FOIs is a Birmingham based anti LTN person who’s submitted almost 20 requests this year - mostly for the anti Kings Heath LTN group (and relationships between the LA and a local health charity) but a few on Lambeth.

They’re competent at FOI requests and have clearly done it before.

They seem to have submitted one strange one to TfL asking for tube pollution data - the response was along the lines of ‘no - you’re wasting our time, we publish this on a regular basis and will do some as per our published schedule ‘.
 
I’m not saying Lambeth are manipulating the findings.

I am saying I find it problematic that there was no consultation and no predefined KPIs as to measure the success of LTNs against any pre-agreed criteria.

Lambeth are clearly pro-LTN and don’t waste a second to pat themselves on the back about how great they are, especially over Twitter, and are even shameless about spending 6k on that parklet that could have been put up for under 500£.

This to me is problematic as they are the ones sponsoring the research, which surprise surprise comes out all positive against criteria they decide.

Now OneLambeth are not unbiased either and spout a load of anecdotal evidence that is less convincing than anything Lambeth put up.

Personally, I am very pro-LTNs and would accept quite large disruption for the benefits they bring. However, when Lambeth next push through something it may not be something I agree with. I would much rather Lambeth were ambitious with LTNs, put in place a robust methodology for measuring outcomes BEFORE implementation and used that as a mandate to expand further.
They’re comparing traffic counts, what other KPIs did you have in mind?

If they had brought out some negative results as well, would that have made the results more credible to you?
 
Why are the idiots so obsessed by people being “consulted” about all this? Given the choice people are always going to kick back against things that might inconvenience them or force a change of behaviour in some way, even if it is for an overall benefit to others.

Fuck consulting, just get the damn things in place and let people get used to it.
Perhaps they saw what happened at Loughborough junction where a scheme wasn’t given time to bed in before the consultations started.
 
They’re comparing traffic counts, what other KPIs did you have in mind?

If they had brought out some negative results as well, would that have made the results more credible to you?
It would be a miracle if it didn’t reduce traffic counts in the LTN zones. The issue I have is that all of this has been done post-hoc after the fact with what smacks of winging it. I have been in these situations at work and it is so easy to make it look like you have been a success if objective KPIs have not been agreed

But my big issue is none of what they measure fully answers questions on the traffic displacement, additional pollution on surrounding roads, and impact on local businesses. As I said I am pro-LTN but these criticisms come up time and time again and it just grinds my gears that Lambeths lack of consultation and hubris means they are caught in these unnecessary arguments.
 
It would be a miracle if it didn’t reduce traffic counts in the LTN zones. The issue I have is that all of this has been done post-hoc after the fact with what smacks of winging it. I have been in these situations at work and it is so easy to make it look like you have been a success if objective KPIs have not been agreed

But my big issue is none of what they measure fully answers questions on the traffic displacement, additional pollution on surrounding roads, and impact on local businesses. As I said I am pro-LTN but these criticisms come up time and time again and it just grinds my gears that Lambeths lack of consultation and hubris means they are caught in these unnecessary arguments.
But the traffic counts on surrounding roads specifically measures traffic displacement.
Impact on local businesses would be difficult to measure when a lot of them are shut...
 
Residents have every damn right to be consulted properly about things that are likely to directly affect them.
And we will be consulted. It can’t be made permanent without consultation. It’s an experimental traffic order to see what impact it has.

For something that is so controversial and seems counterintuitive (eg. they are meant to reduce traffic on boundary roads) it’s useful to trial it so people can see what actual happens and can give useful feedback rather than based on what they think will happen.
 
And we will be consulted. It can’t be made permanent without consultation. It’s an experimental traffic order to see what impact it has.

For something that is so controversial and seems counterintuitive (eg. they are meant to reduce traffic on boundary roads) it’s useful to trial it so people can see what actual happens and can give useful feedback rather than based on what they think will happen.
But if people aren't properly forewarned and consulted as to the aims of the project, then you're going to get a very angry reaction from some and a divided community. Which is exactly what we have here.
 
But if people aren't properly forewarned and consulted as to the aims of the project, then you're going to get a very angry reaction from some and a divided community. Which is exactly what we have here.
Agreed - ideally it would have been just an experimental traffic order but due to COVID and the government making the money available it was an emergency one and then the experimental. The council did send out letters beforehand and have set out the aims though.

It does mean that central government is paying for these rather than the council so that’s positive surely!
 
Agreed - ideally it would have been just an experimental traffic order but due to COVID and the government making the money available it was an emergency one and then the experimental. The council did send out letters beforehand and have set out the aims though.

It does mean that central government is paying for these rather than the council so that’s positive surely!
The council's communication was awful beforehand, as was that baffling website with the stupid name.
 
The council's communication was awful beforehand, as was that baffling website with the stupid name.
not sure what website? But there were letters to each area beforehand. There was a speed they needed to do it to get the funding, doesn’t excuse it but is a reason for rushing. I think they’ve been good since introduction.

Also, not sure how divided the community actually is. Strong views on either side but lots aren’t vocal and hopefully will take part in the consultation (for and against). That’ll be a big thing - get as many people aware of the consultation as possible & I’m sure Brixton Buzz can help!

Lots of the most vocal OneLambeth are also from other boroughs.
 
Also, not sure how divided the community actually is. Strong views on either side but lots aren’t vocal and hopefully will take part in the consultation (for and against). That’ll be a big thing - get as many people aware of the consultation as possible & I’m sure Brixton Buzz can help!
Amongst friends and locals I know in Brixton - including quite a few activists - opinions are definitely divided. It's pointless to pretend otherwise. Every time we post an article about LTNs on Buzz, traffic goes through the roof.
Lots of the most vocal OneLambeth are also from other boroughs.
Now you're sounding a bit like some of the anti-LTN bunch who are always accusing pro-LTN people as being outsiders etc. I don't think it helps the debate on either side.
 
Fair enough - I just think having it as a trial means it will be a more meaningful consultation. People have genuine concerns - I’m obviously pro but couldn’t support if it does just increase traffic & pollution on boundary roads. It needs to reduce car journeys.
 
Inner London boroughs have the lowest car ownership in the country and yet are the most polluted - we need solutions!
 
Inner London boroughs have the lowest car ownership in the country and yet are the most polluted - we need solutions!
There is a solution. It will take decades, cost a huge amount of money, require huge social and structural change, and many people will fight it every step of the way.

For an example, look at The Netherlands over the last 40 years.
 
Good to see the One Lambeth pile on taking place on the latest Buzz article - lots of the same people posting on their FB page about cyclists and pedestrians being secondary citizens to car drivers.
 
Good to see the One Lambeth pile on taking place on the latest Buzz article - lots of the same people posting on their FB page about cyclists and pedestrians being secondary citizens to car drivers.
Seems like more first time posters expressing positively for the scheme now there’s some data behind it. Whoever ever Adam is, although banned, did make me laugh out loud. Can’t be having the personal insults though
 
Seems like more first time posters expressing positively for the scheme now there’s some data behind it. Whoever ever Adam is, although banned, did make me laugh out loud. Can’t be having the personal insults though
He was unstoppable! I kept asking him to tone it down but he kept piling in the insults so I banned him for a week. Some of the ones I've since deleted have been corkers!
 
I thought you might appreciate his fight against car culture hegemony



Most people I know who drive do it to make a living. They are not rich. LTNs has added anther difficulty for them. Life is not easy for those who do deliveries for people in pandemic. Transporting goods to people. These were at one point considered Key Workers. These kind of people don't count.

Adam comes across to me as nasty unpleasant , aggressive and not caring about other people.

First person Ive seen being banned from Brixton Buzz comment section.

Its the kind of person LTN supporters dont need.

So why do you think that kind of person is good publicity?
 
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In minor news. the other OneLambeth posted a strange international women’s day FB post today - celebrating Nancy Astor being the first women to take a seat in Parliament.
 
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