Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[Jeanette Moo]

There’s an expert on WhatsApp!

Did they make up this modelling then? What is the bad news they left out?.

I'm in my community whatsapp group. I'm not as educated or up to date as most on there (or here) but i'm not afraid to ask when I dont know something. Its not even an LTN whatsapp group but many in there keep up to date with the details.

Apparently this latest model ommitted many of the tubes - most of the high ones...and its still a model.

 

[sleaterkinney]

My simple brain looks at the Wandsworth figures and takes them as granted. LTN on, LTN off. No other factors in that time period that im aware of such as lockdowns suddenly being lifted and they kept the A24 restrictions. Then I look at Walthamstow and ask if they have had it for years why are they modeling and not measuring? Why are they ignoring most of the worst offending 'tubes' in their update? Surely walthamstow measurement would be the key data in support?

But if you want to lower pollution then you need to discourage motor traffic and enable alternatives, I can’t really see any way around this.

Me and others have posted up plenty of studies, I’ve yet to see any arguments against.

What do you think they are modelling, where did they get this data from?. Do you think they made it up?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

But if you want to lower pollution then you need to discourage motor traffic and enable alternatives, I can’t really see any way around this.

Me and others have posted up plenty of studies, I’ve yet to see any arguments against.

What do you think they are modelling, where did they get this data from?. Do you think they made it up?

I'm all for lower pollution but like many - still waiting to see that LTNs actually achieve this.

As for the study, why model when you can measure? Wandsworth and sutton measured. That report says 'modelled' many times. If I put a pot on the stove and put a thermometer in it I know how hot it is. If I wave my hand over it and say 'oooo feels like 40 degrees' i'm just guessing

 

[sleaterkinney]

I'm all for lower pollution but like many - still waiting to see that LTNs actually achieve this.

As for the study, why model when you can measure? Wandsworth and sutton measured. That report says 'modelled' many times. If I put a pot on the stove and put a thermometer in it I know how hot it is. If I wave my hand over it and say 'oooo feels like 40 degrees' i'm just guessing

Are you for traffic reduction?

It actually cites the report it got the measurements from in the references section?

 

[thebackrow]

As for the study, why model when you can measure? Wandsworth and sutton measured. That report says 'modelled' many times. If I put a pot on the stove and put a thermometer in it I know how hot it is. If I wave my hand over it and say 'oooo feels like 40 degrees' i'm just guessing

Here you go. This might explain it a bit better.
To follow your thinking. if you have a thermometer it only measures at a point. You know what the temperature of the water in the kettle is. But you don’t know how hot it is 30cm away. But you can model it because there are predictable rates of heat transmission.

Air quality | Waltham Forest Council

Air pollution in Waltham Forest, including how to report air pollution problems.

www.walthamforest.gov.uk

 

[thebackrow]

I'm all for lower pollution but like many.

Don’t actually want to do anything about it.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Are you for traffic reduction?

It actually cites the report it got the measurements from in the references section?

Yes, looks like they based their modelling on old modelling from old data collected in 2007. Oh and they kept the worst offenders out of the new models.

begs the question - the ability to measure is there so why has someone not drawn up a simple chart to show the actual measured pollution from 2007 onwards. Long before LTN, as LTN was implemented and years after.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

Don’t actually want to do anything about it.

Yup, just because I don't agree with these schemes makes me a bad bad person who farts diesel and burns my rubbish in my garden.

 

[Gramsci]

To the best of my knowledge there is zero data that tells us anything reliable about the effect on pollution of teh recent LTN implementations. That's partly because of the bedding in period effect, partly because you need to look at things over a longer timescale anyway to find a meaningful baseline and partly because it's all tangled up with lockdown and covid effects.

That's a problem for both sides of the argument because it can't really be proven either way at the moment, but anyone claiming there's clear evidence that LTNs have increased pollution is talking rubbish.

A problem I have with those advocating LTNs is your post.

To summarise:

• LTNs need to bed in
• LTNs have been introduced during abnormal times - covid
• Therefore longer "baseline" is needed
• LTNs "bed in" time needs to be extended
• It can't be proven either way but what is alternative to reducing car use

Perhaps LTNs should not have been put in place during Covid. That this should have been done after Covid emergency. If main reason for introducing LTNs is about reducing car use long term it imo was not great idea to to put them in place when Covid pandemic is happening. Then a proper baseline could have been set.

As a cyclist I simply don't buy the argument that LTNs had to be put in place now in inner London. It was a discussion that should have happened after Covid.

Many people ( including me) have enough to deal with without the authorities imposing this on pubic with minimal consultation.

 

[thebackrow]

Yup, just because I don't agree with these schemes makes me a bad bad person who farts diesel and burns my rubbish in my garden.

You admit you’re not that educated or up to date on this but you reckon all the data is faked or it’s a big conspiracy and “some guy on your WhatsApp group” is better informed than the Lambeth transport team, TfL and the Mayors team and central government who mandated this nationally.

I do love this idea that all these people are wrong and all that’s needed is for some guy who’d never shown any interest in transport until his drive to Sainsbury’s got 5 minutes longer to have a brainstorm and come up with something no one else has ever thought of.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

You admit you’re not that educated or up to date on this but you reckon all the data is faked or it’s a big conspiracy and “some guy on your WhatsApp group” is better informed than the Lambeth transport team, TfL and the Mayors team and central government who mandated this nationally.

I do love this idea that all these people are wrong and all that’s needed is for some guy who’d never shown any interest in transport until his drive to Sainsbury’s got 5 minutes longer to have a brainstorm and come up with something no one else has ever thought of.

I didn't say fake and I trust the people on my whatsapp group having been part of my community for years. These are not random strangers. People have shoved these reports at them and they have actually bothered to read them.

Yet when Wandsworth and Sutton produce measurements specifically around LTNs (one by Imperial College who look after the air monitoring) there's always an excuse. I've had traffic on my road for months, what's the bedding in time? A month? A year?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

A problem I have with those advocating LTNs is your post.

To summarise:

• LTNs need to bed in
• LTNs have been introduced during abnormal times - covid
• Therefore longer "baseline" is needed
• LTNs "bed in" time needs to be extended
• It can't be proven either way but what is alternative to reducing car use

Perhaps LTNs should not have been put in place during Covid. That this should have been done after Covid emergency. If main reason for introducing LTNs is about reducing car use long term it imo was not great idea to to put them in place when Covid pandemic is happening. Then a proper baseline could have been set.

As a cyclist I simply don't buy the argument that LTNs had to be put in place now in inner London. It was a discussion that should have happened after Covid.

Many people ( including me) have enough to deal with without the authorities imposing this on pubic with minimal consultation.

If it had begun with measurement of traffic, pollution and consultation there wouldn't be one tenth the opposition to it. The whole 'in order to aid social distancing' line is a joke. Literally mugging people off.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes, looks like they based their modelling on old modelling from old data collected in 2007. Oh and they kept the worst offenders out of the new models.

begs the question - the ability to measure is there so why has someone not drawn up a simple chart to show the actual measured pollution from 2007 onwards. Long before LTN, as LTN was implemented and years after.

They based their modelling on the actual measurements in the report they cited in the references section, and compared it with 2007. I’m not sure what problem you have with this.

Do you think traffic causes pollution?

 

[thebackrow]

Perhaps LTNs should not have been put in place during Covid. ....

As a cyclist I....

Pointed out to you many times.

- public transport capacity reduced by social distancing requirements

• need to enable more people to walk and cycle, who previously felt unsafe to do so because of traffic
• this obviously doesn’t bother you as you’re a cyclist already.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

They based their modelling on the actual measurements in the report they cited in the references section, and compared it with 2007. I’m not sure what problem you have with this.

Do you think traffic causes pollution?

We have not touched on the base of this. Why model when you can measure? Why base a model on an old model and exclude the worst offenders from the actual 13 year old measurements?

 

[teuchter]

For an illustration of why you can't come to any conclusions about local air pollution by looking just at a period of a couple of weeks - see the graphs I posted here onwards:

Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

As Im on the roads all day and know a lot of people who work on the roads providing a service for other people thought Id post what I have been hearing from the horses mouth so to speak, Gramsci , you are probably showing too much empathy on this thread. I have seen posts here mostly by the...

www.urban75.net

It varies quite wildly according to weather conditions, time of year and so on.

 

[sleaterkinney]

We have not touched on the base of this. Why model when you can measure? Why base a model on an old model and exclude the worst offenders from the actual 13 year old measurements?

They did measure. They based the model on the measurements. That is in the references section.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

They did measure. They based the model on the measurements. That is in the references section.

2007 measurements....and they based it on some of the measurements. From the link posted above it seems there are ongoing measurements. Can the WF one be seen?

 

[thebackrow]

I trust the people on my whatsapp group having been part of my community for years. These are not random strangers. People have shoved these reports at them and they have actually bothered to read them.

But for some reason you think no one at Lambeth or TfL or in Government has read them? How are your mates better qualified to interpret these reports than transport or air quality professionals (or the presumably clever academics who did the studies)?

What’s the motive for all the professionals in the field to supposedly misrepresent these findings and take this footpath (rather than some other one you don’t specify that you think would be more effective)?

 

[Gramsci]

You admit you’re not that educated or up to date on this but you reckon all the data is faked or it’s a big conspiracy and “some guy on your WhatsApp group” is better informed than the Lambeth transport team, TfL and the Mayors team and central government who mandated this nationally.

I do love this idea that all these people are wrong and all that’s needed is for some guy who’d never shown any interest in transport until his drive to Sainsbury’s got 5 minutes longer to have a brainstorm and come up with something no one else has ever thought of.

That would be Boris Tory government who mandated this.

On Lambeth Council reading what has been happening with Cressingham Gardens recently I don't think it is great idea to argue these kind of people know best.

 

[thebackrow]

That would be Boris Tory government who mandated this.

I know your politics get in the way of your thinking but do you not think it strange that both a Tory government and a labour mayor both agree with the approach?

 

[Jeanette Moo]

But for some reason you think no one at Lambeth or TfL or in Government has read them? How are your mates better qualified to interpret these reports than transport or air quality professionals (or the presumably clever academics who did the studies)?

What’s the motive for all the professionals in the field to supposedly misrepresent these findings and take this footpath (rather than some other one you don’t specify that you think would be more effective)?

Who said anything about TFL or Lambeth? Something was posted here and I highlighted some points, just as teuchter did to mine

 

[Gramsci]

Pointed out to you many times.

- public transport capacity reduced by social distancing requirements

• need to enable more people to walk and cycle, who previously felt unsafe to do so because of traffic
• this obviously doesn’t bother you as you’re a cyclist already.

OK so temporary measure for pandemic then ends when pandemic finishes.

It been pointed out to YOU more than once that Boris Tory government and some Labour Councils are trying to make these permanent schemes.

 

[Gramsci]

I know your politics get in the way of your thinking but do you not think it strange that both a Tory government and a labour mayor both agree with the approach?

What are your politics?

 

[sleaterkinney]

2007 measurements....and they based it on some of the measurements. From the link posted above it seems there are ongoing measurements. Can the WF one be seen?

No, they actually referenced the 2018 report they got their measurements from in the references section, are you trying to wind me up or something?

 

[Gramsci]

I know your politics get in the way of your thinking but do you not think it strange that both a Tory government and a labour mayor both agree with the approach?

I'm surprised you say this as the article you liked gave a reason:

The government is not messing about here! It is determined to see Low Traffic Neighbourhoods implemented and it will beat councils up if they don’t comply. It’s no wonder, then, that hundreds of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods have appeared all over the country in the space of a few months.

The outcry over LTNs is not a culture war – it’s more serious than that

Map by LiveWestEaling We knew the latter half of 2020 would see arguments about Brexit, lockdown restrictions, masks and the US election. What we didn’t foresee was that, in many places, the row of…

flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com

The right wing Tory government has got hard pressed local Councils over a barrel on this one.

 

[thebackrow]

It been pointed out to YOU more than once that Boris Tory government and some Labour Councils are trying to make these permanent schemes.

Absolutely. Because these schemes are already in local and London plans to address climate, air quality and inactivity crises.

All these Lambeth schemes were already in their strategy pre Covid - in Streatham to work with high road cycleways, around Brixton through Liveable Neighbourhood.

The right wing Tory government has got hard pressed local Councils over a barrel on this one.

so over a barrel Lambeth and TfL are getting funding to do stuff they had already said they were going to do. Wow.

and my politics?
Not driven by ideology- I can accept an evidence based or societally desirable policy regardless of who is proposing it and I can accept that a party or group can make both good and bad policy.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

No, they actually referenced the 2018 report they got their measurements from in the references section, are you trying to wind me up or something?

No, you're right. However with the kids in bed i've had time to look into the places where they get the data as others have mentioned all boroughs have seen an improvement. This is Lambeth attached. Huge improvements accross the borough 2013 vs 2016.in all areas bar the very, very north,

Begs the question. Can the improvements you linked be because of the LTNs or in spite of them?

 

[thebackrow]

Who said anything about TFL or Lambeth? Something was posted here and I highlighted some points, just as teuchter did to mine

You think all the decision makers at TFL and Lambeth are wrong and your mate on What’sApp knows better and he’s told you its all bollocks. You know there’s a local guy who writes on bins and he’s read the evidence too - he says Covid is fake and masks limit your oxygen intake.

 

[Jeanette Moo]

You think all the decision makers at TFL and Lambeth are wrong and your mate on What’sApp knows better and he’s told you its all bollocks. You know there’s a local guy who writes on bins and he’s read the evidence too - he says Covid is fake and masks limit your oxygen intake.

Don't get a vaccine. Bill gates wants to control you

Wake up people