British Steel on the verge of collapse

[redsquirrel]

So is this (below) wrong?

Genuinely confused by this.
I presume railtrack and northern rock both received investment.

Railtrack was not nationalised it was converted to a state-owned not for profit company.

EDIT: And the "nationalisation" of NR was also with the aim of returning it to the private sector. In effect having the state subside the losses of the business.

 

[alex_]

Alex,

I’ll take this slowly as I think it’s necessary in your case:

1. Look at the amount British Steep sells domestically.
2. Look at the amount British steel sells to EU countries.
3. Work our which of the two amounts is the most important to the business.
4. Read again what Nigel has said - because he also thinks it’s ‘Brexit related’.
5. Read again what I said - I’d point you specifically to the bit where it says ‘this is not brexit related’
6. Sit down in a quiet place and think it through

Most of their exports appear to be to the eu - what’s your point ?

 

[rutabowa]

Fwiw I've been speaking to old friends who have worked at the steelworks for a long time, whose opinions on it I trust as they are v switched on and experienced, and brexit hasn't come up as a reason at all... whereas asset-stripping definitely has, it is a repeated pattern that has been going on in scunthorpe since more or less the 80s, def the 90s. They expect another owner, another round of lay offs and another round of lower wages.

 

[ska invita]

Railtrack was not nationalised it was converted to a state-owned not for profit company.

EDIT: And the "nationalisation" of NR was also with the aim of returning it to the private sector. In effect having the state subside the losses of the business.

whats your definition of nationalised? To me (and the dictionary) its state-ownership/control. How was Railtrack "not nationalised"?

 

[redsquirrel]

Right the dictionary.

Come on, does Railtrack have to work as business? Is it constrained to working within the market? Do workers have control over it? And what about Northern Rock, where the intention was always to sell it off back to the market, after the state had subsidised it?

 

[ska invita]

Right the dictionary.

Come on, does Railtrack have to work as business? Is it constrained to working within the market? Do workers have control over it? And what about Northern Rock, where the intention was always to sell it off back to the market, after the state had subsidised it?

Theres no need for the patronising "come on", I'm trying to understand what you're getting at but I'm not getting your point so far.

Was Railtrack a business .. i thought yes it was, but the tone of your post says it wasn't?
What do you mean constrained to working within the market? When it was privatised it was clearly working within the market, yes. Again your tone suggests something other here?

Workers control isn't a precondition of being considered nationalised, so not particularly relevant here.

 

[redsquirrel]

I've repeatedly pointed out that Railtrack is a business. And it has to be a business, it has to work in and under a market framework (as has been pointed out repeatedly), the fact that it is an indirectly state-controlled business does not change that.

 

[WouldBe]

Not sure I follow this? BS hasn't gone bankrupt due to cashflow.

Yet they wanted the gov to loan them £30M

 

[steeplejack]

Brexit Party vote:

47% in North Lincolnshire (Scunthorpe's local council)

51% in neighbouring NE Lincolnshire (steel + fish)

 

[cupid_stunt]

Brexit Party vote:

47% in North Lincolnshire (Scunthorpe's local council)

51% in neighbouring NE Lincolnshire (steel + fish)

The combined BP/UKIP share increases those percentages to 52.7% & 58.8%

 

[WouldBe]

Brexit Party vote:

47% in North Lincolnshire (Scunthorpe's local council)

51% in neighbouring NE Lincolnshire (steel + fish)

Why the ?
Out of EU the government could bail British steel out.

 

[DownwardDog]

Why the ?
Out of EU the government could bail British steel out.

Leaving aside the question why you would want the government to pour good money after bad into a totally fucked company, it's not that simple.

Any post brexit EU trade agreement will include anti state aid provisions. Some subsidies aren't allowed under WTO rules and others will attract anti subsidy duties.

 

[treelover]

Be great to have a national 'Stop The Closures' march in London, though it is very unlikely given political interests.

 

[Pickman's model]

Be great to have a national 'Stop The Closures' march in London, though it is very unlikely given political interests.

it won't happen with an attitude like that

 

[treelover]

'Blow It to Bits' ('On va tout peter'): Film Review | Cannes 2019

Blow it to Bits showed how auto-workers in france took the company on, though it is a bit different situation

 

[treelover]

it won't happen with an attitude like that

Trump! is the priority for most protesters at the moment(though it may be smaller than last time), environment, etc, basic issues are not on the agenda, this may have helped Brexit in left behind areas.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trump! is the priority for most protesters at the moment(though it may be smaller than last time), environment, etc, basic issues are not on the agenda, this may have helped Brexit in left behind areas.

don't talk utter rubbish

 

[treelover]

Tell me when the last national protest on say Universal Credit was?

 

[Pickman's model]

Trump! is the priority for most protesters at the moment(though it may be smaller than last time), environment, etc, basic issues are not on the agenda, this may have helped Brexit in left behind areas.

what does this actually mean? who are these "most protestors"? do you mean that trump would be the priority for most people on a stop the closures march? you're all over the fucking shop in an even worse way than usual.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tell me when the last national protest on say Universal Credit was?

there was a unite community national protest against universal credit on 1 december 2018

that has nothing to do with trump or this proposed stop the closures march

e2a that's shut you up

 

[treelover]

I meant a major national(in the capital) event.

 

[Pickman's model]

I meant a major national(in the capital) event.

i don't care a jot what you meant, you asked a question and i answered it

 

[treelover]

How successful was the national day, 300'000 on the streets, no way.

 

[Pickman's model]

How successful was the national day, 300'000 on the streets, no way.

perhaps now i've answered one of your questions you could go back and answer some of mine

Trump! is the priority for most protesters at the moment(though it may be smaller than last time), environment, etc, basic issues are not on the agenda, this may have helped Brexit in left behind areas.

what does this actually mean? who are these "most protestors"? do you mean that trump would be the priority for most people on a stop the closures march? you're all over the fucking shop in an even worse way than usual.

 

[treelover]

I mean that as Lisa Mckenzie notes, you are a fan I believe, middle class issues like protesting trump, etc, are now the priority, just couldn't imagine the coalition that fought the poll tax anymore, I know one lecturer who was prepared to lose her house, now similar people have abandoned working class.

 

[Pickman's model]

I mean that as Lisa Mckenzie notes, you are a fan I believe, middle class issues like protesting trump, etc, are now the priority, just couldn't imagine the coalition that fought the poll tax anymore, I know one lecturer who was prepared to lose her house, now similar people have abandoned working class.

i submit that middle class issues like protesting trump are by no means the priority for the unhappy british steel workers thrown on the scrapheap or the people who will lose their jobs in the knock-on effect or i expect many of their sympathisers who might be more than willing to stage the sort of march you proposed

 

[treelover]

Of course, but where are their allies?, when Trump first visit was announced, all the usual called immediately for a coalition to stop it, massive resources poured in, there is no sense of immediacy, a community is about to be decimated.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Brexit Party vote:

47% in North Lincolnshire (Scunthorpe's local council)

51% in neighbouring NE Lincolnshire (steel + fish)

Yet another post that fundamentally misunderstands the role of the EU single market project generally and in respect of steel specifically.

 

[steeplejack]

Yet another post that fundamentally misunderstands the role of the EU single market project generally and in respect of steel specifically.

Not sure where I've done that- simply despairing that folk believe the Brexit Party a. gives a shit about this and b. has any kind of workable answer for a very challenging and complex set of linked problems (state aid being one, global glut of steel /overcapacity another)

I see British Steel as an asset to the UK and one that will be needed regardless if Britain pursues a chimerical "independence" via Brexit or somehow remains in the EU. I accept there are some problems with EU regulation in simply nationalising at present, but I do feel there is also a strong element of ideological / political choice. Ultimately I suspect big majorities in right wing free marketerr circles will be more than happy for Scunthorpe to be the next Redcar.

I have several major problems with the EU project, the operation of the single market being just one of them. My remain vote was 50.1-49.9% in 2016. I have an even bigger problem with the floating casino capitalist aircraft carrier we'll become if Brexit goes ahead.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Not sure where I've done that- simply despairing that folk believe the Brexit Party a. gives a shit about this and b. has any kind of workable answer for a very challenging and complex set of linked problems (state aid being one, global glut of steel /overcapacity another)

I see British Steel as an asset to the UK and one that will be needed regardless if Britain pursues a chimerical "independence" via Brexit or somehow remains in the EU. I accept there are some problems with EU regulation in simply nationalising at present, but I do feel there is also a strong element of ideological / political choice. Ultimately I suspect big majorities in right wing free marketerr circles will be more than happy for Scunthorpe to be the next Redcar.

I have several major problems with the EU project, the operation of the single market being just one of them. My remain vote was 50.1-49.9% in 2016. I have an even bigger problem with the floating casino capitalist aircraft carrier we'll become if Brexit goes ahead.

Given the you awarded the voters of Scunthorpe you clearly think they’ve made a fundamental error/stupid decision.

So, who should they voted for? Who speaks for their interests? Which party would unpick the Tata/thyssenkrupp monopoly project that threatens all of the remaining mills in Britain? Which party has a coherent industrial plan?