Blade Runner 2049

[8ball]

No, more male victims would not have created any portrayal of female non-victims.

So a female non-victim according to whatever description of non-victim you're going with (I'm unsure how important lack or otherwise of agency is) would have helped.

Fair enough.

 

[kabbes]

So a female non-victim according to whatever description of non-victim you're going with (I'm unsure how important lack or otherwise of agency is) would have helped.

Fair enough.

Yeah, it’s about what is considered unremarkable. How can it be normal not to be a victim when we literally never see women other than as victims?

 

[krtek a houby]

So what? How does that change what I am saying?

Blade Runner includes no representations at all (at least from my memory) of women other than as victims. Specifically, it includes a lot of women who are represented in various negative archetypes — victim of violence, victim of sexual assault, victim of oppression etc — and none at all that just live out their lives either in the background or as a major character. This stands in contrast to the men in the film, some of whom are victims (although still represented as victims striving to overcome their victimhood) but many of whom are just background characters with nothing special to mark them out. To be male is an unmarked identity, to be a woman means that you have to have a special reason for your presence. This is not uncommon in films, which is why it is an issue. It stood out as particularly egregious in this film, however. It also detracted from my enjoyment of this film, because I was constantly very aware of this underlying context.

My acid test is always “how would the kabbess react?”. She doesn’t read political forums or spend time wrapped in the majesty of sound and vision. She just calls it as she sees it. For example, her summation after three episodes of Game of Thrones was “too rapey” and she stopped watching it. She wasn’t interested in Internet people telling her why it being rapey was alright really. Well, I ended up watching this film without the kabbess and by the end, I was kind of glad of that fact. Her presence would have made me squirm a bit.

I saw a lot of male victims in that film also

Spoiler

K; discriminated against by fellow workers and used by his boss. Deckard; having to hide out for decades, losing his other half and not getting to know his daughter, Coco; gets his brains bashed out, Sapper; living almost a solitary life get's "retired", Gaff; ending up in a nursing home - a victim of old age, even Wallace; a victim of disability and a messiah like complex (he's still a horrible being)

 

[kabbes]

I saw a lot of male victims in that film also

Spoiler

K; discriminated against by fellow workers and used by his boss. Deckard; having to hide out for decades, losing his other half and not getting to know his daughter, Coco; gets his brains bashed out, Sapper; living almost a solitary life get's "retired", Gaff; ending up in a nursing home - a victim of old age, even Wallace; a victim of disability and a messiah like complex (he's still a horrible being)

So what?

 

[8ball]

Yeah, it’s about what is considered unremarkable. How can it be normal not to be a victim when we literally never see women other than as victims?

There are plenty of points where the female characters are victims and other points where they are not, but I can see the sense in quite a few of the things you are saying. I don't really think Joi or the memory maker were victims, though (or the resistance leader woman, though she's a very minor part).

I'd agree that the worst examples of characters being totally stripped of agency (replicant programming notwithstanding) seem to happen to women, though.

 

[krtek a houby]

So what?

Well; that's most of the male characters. So whilst its depressing overall; it seems there's no winners in this science fiction film.
Maybe that's the point.

 

[kabbes]

Well; that's most of the male characters. So whilst its depressing overall; it seems there's no winners in this science fiction film.
Maybe that's the point.

No, that’s not the point at all.

For a proponent of identity politics, you really seem to struggle with the basics of identity issues.

 

[krtek a houby]

No, that’s not the point at all.

In the future; there can be only oppression and victims. Humanity is currently in erosion and this is where it ultimately leads to.

 

[kabbes]

In the future; there can be only oppression and victims. Humanity is currently in erosion and this is where it ultimately leads to.

Fuck the future, I'm worried about the here and now.

 

[krtek a houby]

Fuck the future, I'm worried about the here and now.

Well, yes. I'm hoping most people here are worried. This film is a warning, like Modern Times, Metropolis, Threads etc of what could be in store.

 

[kabbes]

Well, yes. I'm hoping most people here are worried. This film is a warning, like Modern Times, Metropolis, Threads etc of what could be in store.

You're missing the point utterly. It's nothing to do with warnings. It's about what impact current depictions of identity actually have on us in the here and now.

 

[krtek a houby]

You're missing the point utterly. It's nothing to do with warnings. It's about what impact current depictions of identity actually have on us in the here and now.

Which is a warning of where we could find ourselves in 30 years time or so.

 

[kabbes]

 

[seventh bullet]

Spoiler

As much as I think Luv is one of the best characters in it, she's still in thrall to her maker, and unlike K (who turns out to be unremarkable by the end) is unable to break completely from her engineering, her internalised subservient role seeing her go all out to prove she's the best slave, but not without the chafing dissonance. The 'new model' murder scene is even more icky with Luv being simultaneously stared in the face by one of Wallace's camera bot 'eyes' while he slices her kin and she has to stand there and watch her bleed out.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yes,yes. I'm not meaning there will be replicants. It's a metaphor for where we're at now and the way women are treated/objectified/discriminated/used as commodities. And if the status quo remains this could be a grimmer future. There's other warnings in the film; climate change, over reliance on technology, slave labour, the power of huge corporations... but the misogyny is the most obvious on first viewing.

 

[kabbes]

Yes,yes. I'm not meaning there will be replicants. It's a metaphor for where we're at now and the way women are treated/objectified/discriminated/used as commodities. And if the status quo remains this could be a grimmer future. There's other warnings in the film; climate change, over reliance on technology, slave labour, the power of huge corporations... but the misogyny is the most obvious on first viewing.

I don't give a shit about the banal and obvious "warnings" it is making. I care about the fact that current depictions of women are so universally poor and this film is contributing to this state of affairs, which has real implications on our current society right here and now.

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't give a shit about what banal and obvious "warnings" it is making. I care about the fact that current depictions of women are so universally poor and this film is contributing to this state of affairs, which has real implications on our current society right here and now.

I think you're not giving any credit to the integrity and intelligence of audiences in regard to this film. Don't you think they get the implications here, considering how obvious they are?

 

[kabbes]

I think you're not giving any credit to the integrity and intelligence of audiences in regard to this film. Don't you think they get the implications here, considering how obvious they are?

The implications of what, exactly? For a start, you clearly haven't picked up on the implications that I am worried about.

 

[krtek a houby]

The implications of what, exactly? For a start, you clearly haven't picked up on the implications that I am worried about.

The implications of how society sees women. I doubt there's many who come out of the film thinking "can't wait until 2049 comes around". More like "that's a possible future to be avoided, how can we change things".

 

[kabbes]

The implications of how society sees women. I doubt there's many who come out of the film thinking "can't wait until 2049 comes around". More like "that's a possible future to be avoided, how can we change things".

That has literally nothing to do with the problem I am identifying.

 

[krtek a houby]

That has literally nothing to do with the problem I am identifying.

That you would have preferred Blade Runner to be a fairytale where everyone lived happilly ever after & nothing bad happened to anyone. That everyone was represented in a positive way. Hey, I hear you. The one black person isn't a positive character. Nobody is being portrayed in a decent light. It's a violent, grim film.

 

[8ball]

The one black person isn't a positive character.

You mean the guy working in a market stall who has trained himself in advanced biotechnology?
Structural inequalities aside, he sounds like quite the role model.

 

[krtek a houby]

You mean the guy working in a market stall who has trained himself in advanced biotechnology?
Structural inequalities aside, he sounds like quite the role model.

Good point. Completely forgot about him; I was thinking of Lenny James.

 

[8ball]

Good point. Completely forgot about him; I was thinking of Lenny James.

Oh yeah. Lennie has a much bigger part tbf.
Also, in Bladerunner it seems random people working in the market seem to be highly trained biotechs generally.

 

[seventh bullet]

Spoiler

There's the bourgeois woman of colour ordering a slave workforce for her 'drill site' from Wallace Corp, and being given the option of buying replicants that can be tailored to her own sexual wants.

 

[8ball]

Spoiler

There's the bourgeois woman of colour ordering a slave workforce for her 'drill site' from Wallace Corp, and being given the option of buying replicants that can be tailored to her own sexual wants.

Very fleetingly, though.

 

[krtek a houby]

Spoiler

There's the bourgeois woman of colour ordering a slave workforce for her 'drill site' from Wallace Corp, and being given the option of buying replicants that can be tailored to her own sexual wants.

Don't remember that scene! Is she protrayed in a positive or negative way?

 

[seventh bullet]

It was for the introduction of Luv.

 

[seventh bullet]

Don't remember that scene! Is she protrayed in a positive or negative way?

Spoiler

She has no lines, just acting as the background guest of a business meeting. I just mentioned that scene for illustrating the class inequality and slavery dimensions to this truly horrid over-driven capitalist world.

Luv herself is a slave, a product, but also has considerable status and power over those, for example, who at least have the 'privilege' and dignity of being 'free' and recognised as truly human but nevertheless exist in a giant rubbish dump.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Gah I just cannot abide this critique of Bladerunner's depictions of women. I mean wtf else were you expecting? A main point of Bladerunner is depicting the world, as it is now, taken to extremes, perhaps even its logical extreme in many aspects.

How is our world now? Well it's sexually objectifying, particularly of women, so why is it a surprise that women in a film about our world as it is now taken to logical extremes are further sexually objectified and the majority of the female droids, holograms, replicants and robots in it are used as sex slaves?

How are women often treated in our world now? Well, they're often portrayed, nearly constantly, as victims, by plenty of feminists as well so why is it a surprise they're nearly constantly victims in a dystopic film about our world taken to its extremes? I mean really, criticism of it might as well be 'it didn't portray socialism in a positive light and not enough space was offered to alternative ways of organising the economy' or 'it didn't represent the working class very fairly, it presented them as slaves caught up in a system against their will' well duh!