Benefit myths and those who fall for them

[William of Walworth]

I must live in a bubble of middle class liberalism where no one I know would ever make disparaging comments about people on benefits.

You're very lucky I think.

Before 2008, I very rarely heard such comments either, certainly not in my workplace (very 'liberal'/'civilised' with a reasonable handful of actual full-on lefties around as well).

Maybe in the pub I'd sometimes hear disparaging comments, but not that often. Maybe before 2008 attitudes against claimants were a tad less venemous, although Sun and Mail headlines certainly weren't, as I recall.

But back then (probably ever since I left as well), there were posters around my borough inviting people to shop housing benefit 'fraudsters', and other posters (DWP?) saying 'we've got our eyes on you' or similar, aimed at benefit claimants more generally.

Over the years, I guess propaganda like this, whether from tabloid headlines and shock stories (especially), or from government agencies or from main-party politicians, is going to have a drip drip effect on peoples' opinions. Earlier posters have talked about that and I agree. The effect seems to have been cumulatively huge in strengthening and widening peoples' negativity.

Even given all that though ...

I still feel bloody depressed, here in S Wales, especially since I started working in mid 2010, how much claimants are actively hated (not too strong a word) and resented by so many among my colleagues, and among so many 'blokes in pubs' etc.

Attitudes appear to be far far more negative and widespread than I remember being aware of in London, and I lived in a perfectly ordinary area then as well.

Perfectly prepared to believe that attitudes in London have got worse over the last few years as well, mind

Perhaps becoming a JSA claimant myself (2 separate periods over just under eighteen months) after I moved here myself has opened my eyes to how little some people like you. Yes you, the claimant or ex-claimant, are hated! Assumptions of fraud/leadswinging underly so many attitudes towards you. Not least attitudes built into DWP procedures and questioning ....

I don't work Fridays any more now (went part time in October, and by choice). Will probably be going out some time around 2 or 2:30 pm today. Might a recently moved in neighbour, or their friend/visitor, guess that I'm a 'scrounger'? Other more long standing in my street know we both leave the house at stupid a clock in the morning other days a week, but I wonder how many 'shop a fraudster' calls are made to 'hotlines' for shitstirrers and grasses, on the basis of assumptions? On the basis of what people assume? From what they want to believe?

festivaldeb is a welfare rights adviser not far from here -- elderly and disability claimants mostly. How her job and office survives in cuts-central times remains a mystery! But her most depressinmg anecdotes are about the number of her own clients who share popular/negative assumptions about other claimants.

It's always the others!

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm sure I would have heard all that crap in my old workplace.
I enjoyed robustly challenging those views. I miss that!

 

[William of Walworth]

I wished I enjoyed doing it. I'm no good at it, so I end up fuming in silence at some stuff I hear, more often than is good for me

 

[cesare]

That's insane. Are 'normal' people really that hoodwinked?
I am lucky not to have encountered any negative comments about scroungers IRL yet and never see any baiting of us on Facebook

I take it you didn't watch Question Time, then.

 

[existentialist]

I must live in a bubble of middle class liberalism where no one I know would ever make disparaging comments about people on benefits.

You don't have to look very far on Facebook to find those groups with ridiculously long titles and semi-literate admins, ranting on about benefits cheats, etc. Your discretion and admirable self-restraint have probably just prevented you from finding them so far. And, presumably, your friends list is populated by halfway-decent people who don't subscribe to the myths.

 

[William of Walworth]

My (little used) Facebook acount is overwhelmingly populated by sound people as friends as well. Thankfully!

 

[existentialist]

I would be happy to talk about this with someone who had a real interest in the subject, rather than someone whose only motive is desire to pettily needle others.

I think there are a few such right here on this thread. Speaking personally, I have no desire to needle others, and I don't think it's what I've been doing in responding to the poster who seems to have wanted to nitpick every comment made about benefit myths.

I think it is important that those of us who can and have the motivation do what we can to counter the endless propagandising and mythmaking going on in the media and from Government, as well as the ignorance it fosters in individuals. If that counts as "needling", well, I guess that's just too bad.

 

[Orang Utan]

I take it you didn't watch Question Time, then.

God, no. I hate Thursdays on Twitter. Serious political people I respect go mad for an hour.

 

[Orang Utan]

I think there are a few such right here on this thread. Speaking personally, I have no desire to needle others, and I don't think it's what I've been doing in responding to the poster who seems to have wanted to nitpick every comment made about benefit myths.

I think it is important that those of us who can and have the motivation do what we can to counter the endless propagandising and mythmaking going on in the media and from Government, as well as the ignorance it fosters in individuals. If that counts as "needling", well, I guess that's just too bad.

I was only referring to one person who just seems to me to be on a crusade to be unpleasant, rather than actually discuss things in a civilised manner

 

[Orang Utan]

You don't have to look very far on Facebook to find those groups with ridiculously long titles and semi-literate admins, ranting on about benefits cheats, etc. Your discretion and admirable self-restraint have probably just prevented you from finding them so far. And, presumably, your friends list is populated by halfway-decent people who don't subscribe to the myths.

Why would I look for groups like that?

 

[cesare]

God, no. I hate Thursdays on Twitter. Serious political people I respect go mad for an hour.

I meant the programme!

 

[ViolentPanda]

and senior citizens, for whom some of the language is getting very close to 'benefits / scroungers'

I've been telling my dad that this would happen for a couple of years now. Once they started discussing breaking the principle of universality back in late 2010, it became obvious that if they got away with Child Benefit "reforms", they'd move on and eventually try similar on the State Pension (probably post-election, if they win), and that if Labour win, they'll do the same because we can expect the same shit from a different bunch of arseholes.

mum-tat (who to be frank would probably not pass the U75 standard of political soundness but is often not untypical of 'middle england' opinions) has outbreaks of getting somewhat depressed about it all.

i am gently trying to get the message across that it's part of the whole divide and rule agenda...

My parents, who're pretty much on the right about everything politically, are cottoning to the fact that it's not just "scroungers" who're getting it in the neck, it's people like their neighbour, 64 years old, who got sanctioned for refusing a job offer that'd have meant 140 miles of driving a day just to get to and from the factory, no assistance for fuel costs, and minimum wage on a 38 hour week. His fuel costs would have been around £20 a day.
NOW they get that what the nicely-dressed chap on the telly is saying is bullshit, that "scroungers" are whoever the govt choose to point the bone at for that week, and that the naughty people in parliament consistently don't mention the underclaiming that sees an average of £10 billion per annum stay at the Treasury. Greebo and I getting my dad Attendance Allowance has also started a small revolt among their friends and my dad's siblings, some of whom come round to thinking that actually it's fine to claim benefits if they have a permanent health condition, if that money would make life easier (most of them live in small villages where having a car or being able to afford to give someone petrol money for theirs is a lifeline).

But yeah, more are copping that "divide and rule" is the name of the game, thankfully.

 

[existentialist]

Why would I look for groups like that?

No reason. But rest assured that lots of people do!

 

[Orang Utan]

I meant the programme!

I know. But I see people responding to it on twitter and it pisses me off.
It's not a politics show, it's entertainment. It doesn't change people's minds, it just entrenches the views people already have.
And still serious politicos watch it and tweet angrily at the unsurprisingly ill-informed views expressed on it.

 

[Orang Utan]

No reason. But rest assured that lots of people do!

I'm well aware of it!

 

[existentialist]

And here's the next myth in the making. Courtesy of one of our Usual Suspects, the good old Daily Mail.

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...land-for-next-atos-onslaught-the-iron-bridge/

 

[cesare]

I know. But I see people responding to it on twitter and it pisses me off.
It's not a politics show, it's entertainment. It doesn't change people's minds, it just entrenches the views people already have.
And still serious politicos watch it and tweet angrily at the unsurprisingly ill-informed views expressed on it.

Yeah, well the policy makers are getting national media airtime, so millions of people are watching their myth making.

 

[Orang Utan]

Yeah, well the policy makers are getting national media airtime, so millions of people are watching their myth making.

True enough. I can't even watch television news anymore though. It just makes me too angry.

 

[Onket]

This is boring and unilluminating.
Do you know would be really intesesting?
A discussion about benefit myths and those who fall for them

Well said.

 

[existentialist]

Well said.

So, Onket, have you got anything to say about benefit myths and how they're propagated, or are you only here to needle? Only I notice that you're not exactly holding yourself to the high standards you seem to expect everyone else to be adhering to...

 

[Onket]

So, Onket, have you got anything to say about benefit myths and how they're propagated, or are you only here to needle? Only I notice that you're not exactly holding yourself to the high standards you seem to expect everyone else to be adhering to...

My opinion has aleady been posted, I'd only be repeating the opinion of the majority of people on here. Can't really see the point in doing that. I originally posted as I thought it was worth trying to stop the ongoing fairly off-topic needling of one particular poster cos s/he didn't follow the party line 100%. It's pretty clear if you read my posts. Thanks for trying to start an off topic argument yet again though. Takes all sorts, I spose. Good luck.

 

[existentialist]

Takes all sorts, I spose. Good luck.

*waves*

 

[xenon]

Found this blog when trying to recall a Thinking Allowed program I heard, where attitudes to bennefit claiments were being discussed. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandp...-claimants-to-live-in-a-climate-of-suspicion/

In short. It litraly near worries some peple to death. And to some extent, the idea there is a significant amount of fraudulent claims has been internalised by those claiming.

Thankfully to date, I've not had any grief regarding claiming myself. I've not noticed in day to day, any vocal anti claiment retteric. Although, being currently unemployed I'm not actually around that many peple day to day and if I go to the pub, they pretty much know my opinions there...

 

[xenon]

You don't have to look very far on Facebook to find those groups with ridiculously long titles and semi-literate admins, ranting on about benefits cheats, etc. Your discretion and admirable self-restraint have probably just prevented you from finding them so far. And, presumably, your friends list is populated by halfway-decent people who don't subscribe to the myths.

There are these peple of course. But who pays any attention to what anyone says on the interwebs...

 

[existentialist]

There are these peple of course. But who pays any attention to what anyone says on the interwebs...

You're right, I doubt that most people are going to be saying "Oh, I found a Facebook group that says everyone claiming benefits is a dole-bludging skiver who wouldn't know a day's work if it came into their living room and jumped all over the furniture".

But I do think that all of these sources represent a kind of background noise that reinforce each other - if we hear a particular message from enough different sources, most of us will tend to be more persuaded by the message, regardless of the sources. I think it can take a pretty determined effort to maintain one's critical thinking and question assumptions when you're being surrounded by the same message everywhere. After all, that's very much how propaganda is supposed to work.

So, unfortunately, I think even the interwebs can play its part...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

In short. It litraly near worries some peple to death.

sadly, not just "near" in too many cases.

 

[xenon]

You're right, I doubt that most people are going to be saying "Oh, I found a Facebook group that says everyone claiming benefits is a dole-bludging skiver who wouldn't know a day's work if it came into their living room and jumped all over the furniture".

But I do think that all of these sources represent a kind of background noise that reinforce each other - if we hear a particular message from enough different sources, most of us will tend to be more persuaded by the message, regardless of the sources. I think it can take a pretty determined effort to maintain one's critical thinking and question assumptions when you're being surrounded by the same message everywhere. After all, that's very much how propaganda is supposed to work.

So, unfortunately, I think even the interwebs can play its part...

Yep, I agree. Like OU, I tend to avoid areas of the web where that sort of entrenched ignorance and bile coalesce. Ends up with me wanting to commit impracticle acts of robust re-education...

Thankfully there are quite a few well considered bloggers and meant in a nice way, media junkies, putting out articles challenging the Daily Mail-esc bullshit. You can't make people read them but they need to be there. IRL as VP indicates, as more peple see someone they know and trust being effected by this stuff, it makes the lies harder to maintain.

 

[xenon]

sadly, not just "near" in too many cases.

Yep.

 

[Maltin]

This is boring and unilluminating.
Do you know would be really intesesting?
A discussion about benefit myths and those who fall for them

 

[DexterTCN]

Just found out the woman in the OP is a prison officer.