Basic Income
- Thread starter Fez909
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Fez909
toilet expert
Sorry to take so long to reply to this.
I can see what you're saying but I'm not sure that it would necessarily follow. If free time was the only benefit to this scheme then perhaps, but it seems to me that the increased money in circulation would mean there wouldn't be a huge shift from monetary compensation towards bartering. Why swap when you can just sell something? And if you find you can sell it, and there are people willing to buy it, then that just becomes a business.
One of money's greatest strengths is being able to abstract value so that we are able to trade easily without worrying about whether we are getting a fair deal or that the things we want/need are immediately available. Of course it's not perfect in that, and it's perhaps not preferable for society, but I think it's efficiency can't be denied.
Fez909
toilet expert
Basic income seems to be seeping into public awareness ever more with yet another article in the mainstream press.
And this fella has attempted to build a mathematical model to see if it was more cost effective to implement a basic income or a basic job using Monte Carlo simulations. I think his model is flawed in many more ways that he considers - it is far, far too simple for one - but there are people working on better versions based off his code. Good to see more work being done on the numbers, rather than the concept, even if they're a long way off yet.
And this fella has attempted to build a mathematical model to see if it was more cost effective to implement a basic income or a basic job using Monte Carlo simulations. I think his model is flawed in many more ways that he considers - it is far, far too simple for one - but there are people working on better versions based off his code. Good to see more work being done on the numbers, rather than the concept, even if they're a long way off yet.
Fez909
toilet expert
The Economist now: http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/11/government-guaranteed-basic-income
It definitely feels like this idea is gaining momentum
It definitely feels like this idea is gaining momentum
ska invita
back on the other side
The swiss vote is on Monday i think
Fez909
toilet expert
Isn't that for the CEO to worker pay ratio? I read recently that the basic income vote might take two years!
ska invita
back on the other side
you're rightIsn't that for the CEO to worker pay ratio? I read recently that the basic income vote might take two years!
"A separate proposal to limit monthly executive pay to no more than what the company's lowest-paid staff earn in a year, the so-called 1:12 initiative, faces a popular vote on November 24."
voting on a sunday - they're so on it!
Fez909
toilet expert
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
It's part of the structure of a prehistoric coach station.
from when the national express network of the day was buses like this, except pulled by dinosaurs
Not sure I entirely agree with that!
Everyone should have at least their basic needs covered AND share in the labour, if able. Of course if everyone is working for needs rather than profit then you won't be forced into doing a gruelling 40 hour week. I don't like the idea of one group of people doing the graft and another group not though. Many hands make light work!
ska invita
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yeah would be great. 12-1 not as low as I'd like of course, but lets see, a company where a boss is on a million, means the lowest paid worker would be on... 84,000! not bad for a cleaning jobApparently it has a good chance of passing. Good shit, Swiss
i havent seen any detail about how theyre planning to get out of it if it passes...
ska invita
back on the other side
i dont understand your post at all - do you mind explaining it? are you suggesting i have to work ("share in the labour")?Not sure I entirely agree with that!
Everyone should have at least their basic needs covered AND share in the labour, if able. Of course if everyone is working for needs rather than profit then you won't be forced into doing a gruelling 40 hour week. I don't like the idea of one group of people doing the graft and another group not though. Many hands make light work!
what dont you agree with?
Fez909
toilet expert
Not sure I entirely agree with that!
Everyone should have at least their basic needs covered AND share in the labour, if able. Of course if everyone is working for needs rather than profit then you won't be forced into doing a gruelling 40 hour week. I don't like the idea of one group of people doing the graft and another group not though. Many hands make light work!
Why? Work is invented these days, rather than it being a necessity. What's the point of everyone doing made-up jobs and wasting resources when we can afford for them to do what they wish?
You're also assuming that just because people can do nowt all day then they will choose to. I think people would rather work.
2 replies in quick succession! Firstly, are we discussing this in the context of capitalism, or some future utopia? I'm strictly discussing the latter so if it's the former then sorry for crossed wires.
And regarding the latter, well there's a whole debate to be had as to what constitutes 'work'. But I'm not entirely comfortable with some kind of opt out system. What happens if everyone decides to opt out?
And regarding the latter, well there's a whole debate to be had as to what constitutes 'work'. But I'm not entirely comfortable with some kind of opt out system. What happens if everyone decides to opt out?
Fez909
toilet expert
Within capitalism. Just think of it like this: instead of some people getting benefits; everyone does. And it's the same amount no matter your circumstances.
ska invita
back on the other side
AS in it kicks in tomorrow, definitely
Oh right. Well then yeah, Obviously I'm in favour of a downward shift in wealth, not an upward one.
ska invita
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it wont happen. Fez, could you remind us of where basic income has already been implemented and what happened. Wasnt it in Canada somewhere? And somewhere else too? I forget
It might not. But I'd rather not sign and seal it so *structurally* it could. I'd be pissed doing earlies on the bins for five days while others are getting a lie in and a day pondering their existence. We could do a day each, yeah?
ska invita
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The market would still operate in terms of what jobs get done by whom - its wont be a communist-era, decided-for-you thing. There'd still be people up for doing the bins, and local councils would still be the employer - it will be interesting to see how the value of those jobs changes (both social and monetary).
ska invita
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this is what happened in Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
ska invita
back on the other side
fuck it, lets try it and see what happens
Fez909
toilet expert
Yes, one of the advantages is that job sharing becomes economically viable. But even if not, I think you'd still have people doing the bins as that is money on top of their basic income. And the basic income is no life of Riley. It's just enough to get by.
As ska says, they introduced this in Canada for 5 years and they didn't see everyone pack in work. Working hours dropped 1% for men, 3 or 5% for women, depending if they were married or not.
They also have a similar thing in Alaska, but not quite. Every year there is a dividend paid out by the state to every citizen, and it is a share of the oil profits. It's not enough to live on, but it's in the thousands of dollars some years. The state went from being one of the most unequal in the US to one of the most equal.
There were trials in Namibia which were wholly positive, and there is an ongoing trial in India now which has seen villages "spending more on food and healthcare, children's school performance improved in 68 percent of families, time spent in school nearly tripled, personal savings tripled, and new business startups doubled."
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This was Friedmanite Negative Income Tax rather than Basic Income (and in a tiny one industry town). The Alaska example is proper basic income.
Fez909
toilet expert
One thing that's interesting about that Mincome experiment is the reduction in hospital visits, car accidents, domestic abuse and mental illness levels. 8.5% fewer hospital visits according to Wiki. That would save a lot of money in the NHS if those numbers were able to be reproduced here.
ska invita
back on the other side
is this it/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
what do you think about basic income butchers?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yep, that's it.
I'll be totally honest. I've no interest at all in the idea - and that's not to disparage anyone else's interest. I only replied above as i was flicking through Basic Income: The Material Conditions of Freedom by Daniel Raventos yesterday afternoon.
ska invita
back on the other side
will have a look at a hard copy of that... i know theres also this out there
the "egalitarian capitalism" bit might put some people off, but i think that would be premature
the "egalitarian capitalism" bit might put some people off, but i think that would be premature
Sounds interesting I like Olin-Wrights stuff that I've seen.
ska invita
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i had a flick through - its a collection and looks quite academic - but thats as far as i got
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