Barbie vs Oppenheimer

[redsquirrel]

Some interesting articles trying to pin down Christopher's politics

New Statement psychoanalysis him and concludes great British conservative

https://archive.ph/jY9yg

Thanks for the link - I now know I can pretty much swerve anything by Will Lloyd in the future. There could be a decent article on Oppenheimer, Nolan and his politics but this is not it.

The writer of the piece in the Independent is obviously far less in love with his own writing and so has a written something much more sensible, and less shit

 

[PR1Berske]

Just back from "Barbie". Loved it

 

[Ranbay]

Well barbie was all kinds of awesome

 

[Ranbay]

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m still surprised that Mattel have managed to switch the much maligned doll responsible for projecting impossible ideals of female bodies onto impressionable young minds into a feminist torch bearer.
It’s a PR master stroke.

 

[scifisam]

I’m still surprised that Mattel have managed to switch the much maligned doll responsible for projecting impossible ideals of female bodies onto impressionable young minds into a feminist torch bearer.
It’s a PR master stroke.

Barbie has been both from the start.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Barbie has been both from the start.

I’d love to know how.

 

[PR1Berske]

I’m still surprised that Mattel have managed to switch the much maligned doll responsible for projecting impossible ideals of female bodies onto impressionable young minds into a feminist torch bearer.
It’s a PR master stroke.

The film handles that quite well, they even acknowledge the mistakes made with a pregnant doll and one with inflatable boobs. Greta Gerwig couldn't go from Ladybird to toeing the party line and she doesn't, it's a workable balance of Mattel getting an advert into millions of screens, and a message of empowerment to women.

(I'm a 43 year old man, I'm no judge on whether the feminist message is faultless or perfect or what-have-you, let's be honest.)

 

[scifisam]

I’d love to know how.

Well, it is a major part of the movie, so it's a bit of a surprising question. TBH. But it was dolls that showed women doing all sorts of jobs, often powerful or traditionally male jobs, and often ones that girls wouldn't see women doing in real life (which is still true, to some extent). And Barbie had her own home and car (not as big a deal now but it was when it started) and had a boyfriend, not a husband, and no kids.

TBH it's a shame there aren't more similar dolls aimed at boys, rather than mostly being military or superheroes. Boys like pretend play too, and representation also matters for them. Maybe they do exist and I'm just not aware of them though. I mean there are different Kens, but not nearly as many.

Don't think you need me to tell you about the other side (unrealistic body types - and encouragement of plastic over-consumption, though that second one is not exactly confined to Barbie). Mattel did start making genuine efforts at changing the representation way back in the 80s, which is why the movie can have Barbies in Barbie-land who look like pretty much anyone, but the "stereotypical Barbie" is still a thing, of course.

Some people kinda just don't value creative play and letting kids play with dolls, and wouldn't let their kids play with Barbies of any body shape, because they should be playing with Lego instead.

Though actually that was one of the features of the movie that I really disliked - the girls smashing up their baby dolls. They still have their place too, and it's not great making it seem as if independent women should never want to play-act at being mothers as well as being Presidents or lawyers. There was a strong mother-daughter relationship, of course, but that first baby-doll smashing scene didn't sit right with me at all.

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm just going through recent pages because I didn't actually notice this was page 13 .

If you go to the bbfc website, they explain what the content is, and often make it clear why they've chosen the certificate. Can be useful before seeing the film.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well, it is a major part of the movie, so it's a bit of a surprising question. TBH. But it was dolls that showed women doing all sorts of jobs, often powerful or traditionally male jobs, and often ones that girls wouldn't see women doing in real life (which is still true, to some extent). And Barbie had her own home and car (not as big a deal now but it was when it started) and had a boyfriend, not a husband, and no kids.

TBH it's a shame there aren't more similar dolls aimed at boys, rather than mostly being military or superheroes. Boys like pretend play too, and representation also matters for them. Maybe they do exist and I'm just not aware of them though. I mean there are different Kens, but not nearly as many.

My son likes Lego. Which I guess is unisex even though there's a version aimed at girls called 'friends' (I think).

 

[scifisam]

My son likes Lego. Which I guess is unisex even though there's a version aimed at girls called 'friends' (I think).

I mean dolls aimed at boys, specifically.

(I edited my post in between, sorry).

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I mean dolls aimed at boys, specifically.

(I edited my post in between, sorry).

We had 'Action Man'. Can't say it was my favourite toy or made me want to join the military (I didn't).

I don't think it's even available now. If it is my kid doesn't mention it.

 

[scifisam]

We had 'Action Man'. Can't say it was my favourite toy or made me want to join the military (I didn't).

I don't think it's even available now. If it is my kid doesn't mention it.

Yes, like I said, it'd be nice if there were dolls aimed at boys that weren't just fighty ones.

Funny though, isn't it, that Barbie gets waaay more flack than Action Man. Actually it's doubly ironic!

 

[krtek a houby]

Yes, like I said, it'd be nice if there were dolls aimed at boys that weren't just fighty ones.

Funny though, isn't it, that Barbie gets waaay more flack than Action Man. Actually it's doubly ironic!

Action Man with his unrealistic body. Was an odd figure in the 70s - muscle bound, no genitalia and quite macho variants. Almost exclusively white, apart from Tom Stone.

Did have a Princess Leia figure, as part of my overall Star Wars collection.

And a hand puppet; Coconut Cream who was part of a trio of biscuit inspired characters, the other two being Kimberly and Mikado.

 

[A380]

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, like I said, it'd be nice if there were dolls aimed at boys that weren't just fighty ones.

Funny though, isn't it, that Barbie gets waaay more flack than Action Man. Actually it's doubly ironic!

Action Man was discontinued in 2006.

 

[bluescreen]

Though actually that was one of the features of the movie that I really disliked - the girls smashing up their baby dolls. They still have their place too, and it's not great making it seem as if independent women should never want to play-act at being mothers as well as being Presidents or lawyers. There was a strong mother-daughter relationship, of course, but that first baby-doll smashing scene didn't sit right with me at all.

This is interesting and disturbing.
I haven't seen the movie, though I've read about it, obvs. And I never played with dolls but I knew girls who did, and disfiguring and dismembering their dolls was something they did, after a lot of smacking, hair-pulling and banging the doll about the head when it disobeyed. It always appalled me and I could never understand it, but looking back they were as likely to be acting out frustration as copying adult behaviour. (I hope I'm right there!) So I'm interested to know the context of the doll-smashing in the movie, whether this was a symbol of rejection of the whole doll culture (a bit like bra burning or book burning) or whether it was something more difficult and relational.

I suppose I'll have to go and see the thing after all!

 

[Sue]

So I'm interested to know the context of the doll-smashing in the movie, whether this was a symbol of rejection of the whole doll culture (a bit like bra burning or book burning) or whether it was something more difficult and relational.

It's a play on the scene at the start of 2001 A Space Odyssey.

 

[weepiper]

Have now seen both. I went to Barbie with my 19 year old daughter because she wanted me to see it with her, I wasn't really expecting much from it but was pleasantly surprised with how much I enjoyed it and taken aback at how much it affected me emotionally. I saw Oppenheimer with my 15 year old son again because he wanted to see it rather than me being specifically interested. It was ok, about an hour too long, quite hard to follow because a lot of characters looked pretty similar, and if I never see another Hollywood film where the tortured but brilliant hero is a bastard to all the women in his life but we the audience are supposed to forgive him because he's so tortured and brilliant, it will be too soon.

 

[Thora]

It’s more of a jokey reference really to Barbie being groundbreaking - though I didn’t take it as literal. Although lots of girls move on from the baby doll they got as a toddler to the fashion doll at 4 or 5, Barbie doesn’t totally replace the baby. My almost 6 year old still plays with the beloved baby doll as well as Barbie (she also owns a ‘realistic’ child shaped fashion doll - a Lottie - which is totally ignored).

 

[bimble]

it's a workable balance of Mattel getting an advert into millions of screens, and a message of empowerment to women.

I am not sure you know.
It's a couple of weeks now and the more i think about it the more I think it was a really awkward compromise between these two objectives and the doll-ad won. The whole ending was just that, rehabilitating the doll.
What sort of message of empowerment exactly anyway?
I quite enjoyed the film, bits of it were funny, but in retrospect I really think it missed the mark of being anything but an entertaining advert.

 

[PR1Berske]

I am not sure you know.
It's a couple of weeks now and the more i think about it the more I think it was a really awkward compromise between these two objectives and the doll-ad won. The whole ending was just that, rehabilitating the doll.
What sort of message of empowerment exactly anyway?
I quite enjoyed the film, bits of it were funny, but in retrospect I really think it missed the mark of being anything but an entertaining advert.

It had moments of advertising all the way through, aye. Where I'll diverge from you is that toy-ads-as-films don't tend to be so critical and parodying of the manufacturer and I could really tell that this was a Greta Gerwig film.

 

[bimble]

My feeling is that the interesting opportunity that the film created was the bit with the Kens' backlash, the angry men pushing back after the feminism of barbieland had 'gawn too far'. Which is imo very relevant to the andrew tate-ish currents going on right now in the world.
But then the film just blew it by not in any way attempting to resolve that, instead the Barbies tricked the Kens back into their existing condition, the kens have no houses, the barbies are back on top, nothing resolved. That was just.. a bit crap wasn't it?

 

[Brainaddict]

This seems like a good article to restore some sanity amidst the hype: What Barbie and Oppenheimer have in common

 

[weepiper]

My feeling is that the interesting opportunity that the film created was the bit with the Kens' backlash, the angry men pushing back after the feminism of barbieland had 'gawn too far'. Which is imo very relevant to the andrew tate-ish currents going on right now in the world.
But then the film just blew it by not in any way attempting to resolve that, instead the Barbies tricked the Kens back into their existing condition, the kens have no houses, the barbies are back on top, nothing resolved. That was just.. a bit crap wasn't it?

It's a metaphor for what happens every time feminism makes any sort of push.

 

[bimble]

It's a metaphor for what happens every time feminism makes any sort of push.

Maybe. Felt really unsatisfying is all I’m saying, the way the men’s rights movement thing ended with a return to status quo and then a pointless montage of weeping Barbie.

 

[weepiper]

Maybe. Felt really unsatisfying is all I’m saying, the way the men’s rights movement thing ended with a return to status quo and then a pointless montage of weeping Barbie.

Yes. It is really unsatisfying. It's meant to be. It's not really a happy ending at all.

 

[bimble]

The actual ending of the film was a weird experience for me, have to assume it was intended to be moving and emotional but yep, just hated it tbh.

 

[A380]

This is interesting and disturbing.
I haven't seen the movie, though I've read about it, obvs. And I never played with dolls but I knew girls who did, and disfiguring and dismembering their dolls was something they did, after a lot of smacking, hair-pulling and banging the doll about the head when it disobeyed. It always appalled me and I could never understand it, but looking back they were as likely to be acting out frustration as copying adult behaviour. (I hope I'm right there!) So I'm interested to know the context of the doll-smashing in the movie, whether this was a symbol of rejection of the whole doll culture (a bit like bra burning or book burning) or whether it was something more difficult and relational.

I suppose I'll have to go and see the thing after all!

It’s a shot for shot riff on the antelope skull/ femur cut to the Space Station scene in 2001. The initial Barbie / Lilli taking the place of the monolith.