Barbaric: woman stoned to death in Pakistan

[DotCommunist]

one of the galling things about the wannsee conference film (based on direct transcripts) is that included in the conference was the crafter of the Nuremburg laws. He got the hump quite a bit and had to be overriden. Because he thought the new measures being put forward were too evil? no. Because his proffesional pride was wounded at them chucking out his hard thought and crafted legislation. What a cunt. anyway

/derail

 

[seventh bullet]

No its fucking not the same.
Not getting cash from the goverment is a first world problem.
Being murdered by your family in public outside a court while armed police do nothing and said family think what they did was praiseworthy is another fucking level of evil.

Child-killing drones which you joke about are a first world problem of another, barbaric kind. Brought to the backward people of Pakistan.

 

[likesfish]

Which are part of a war the talibans ieds bargin basement robot killers, still kill more children but then they are the resistence rather than another bunch of foreign killers

Not sure which world saudi falls into but they funded and are funding the islamic death cult which leas to the use of drones.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which are part of a war the talibans ieds bargin basement robot killers, still kill more children but then they are the resistence rather than another bunch of foreign killers

Not sure which world saudi falls into but they funded and are funding the islamic death cult which leas to the use of drones.

get a grip

 

[Pickman's model]

No its fucking not the same.
Not getting cash from the goverment is a first world problem.
Being murdered by your family in public outside a court while armed police do nothing and said family think what they did was praiseworthy is another fucking level of evil.

right so people who hang themselves because they're desperately ill and still told they're fit for work (presumably the hanging proves the government right, that they were malingering all the time) have only faced a minor irritation akin to buying the wrong sort of batteries for your camera.

 

[Pickman's model]

two stories from today's standard:

1) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...sband-hours-after-vowing-to-flee-9451007.html

2) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...of-mother-found-dead-in-northolt-9449087.html

 

[DotCommunist]

well the various different programmes and laws became solidified into a solid extermination project at the wansee conference (as I'm sure ye know) in '42. Theres a harrowing film on that. The baccilus stuff and 'infection' etc is more or less straight from the Protocols iirc.

So not an act of war in nazi heads, a necessary racial cleansing. Which explains why it continued and intensified even after the writing was on the wall for the axis powers.

further to this- Nazi Germany made war on states, they exterminated peoples. See how any conquered or annexed states were required to hand over their slavs, jews, politicals etc. And in some cases were only too happy to do so. Thats not war, you can't make war against a homogenous mass made up of in the main civilians. If you are on that one, its genocide. They won wars, then implemented the extermination programs. So the two are not comparable things.

Its worth remembering that the stateless people of europe* in that era were the people targetted for not war- who were they going to fight? Aside from partisan and resistance activities most of these people were ordinary citizens taken away to be killed in special camps. Thats just not war- its attempted genocide.


* and lets not forget they were intergrated with the state they were living in for many hundreds of years- had every reason to say 'I am german, I am jewish' or 'I am german, I am slav'

 

[Pickman's model]

further to this- Nazi Germany made war on states, they exterminated peoples. See how any conquered or annexed states were required to hand over their slavs, jews, politicals etc. And in some cases were only too happy to do so. Thats not war, you can't make war against a homogenous mass made up of in the main civilians. If you are on that one, its genocide. They won wars, then implemented the extermination programs. So the two are not comparable things.

Its worth remembering that the stateless people of europe* in that era were the people targetted for not war- who were they going to fight? Aside from partisan and resistance activities most of these people were ordinary citizens taken away to be killed in special camps. Thats just not war- its attempted genocide.


* and lets not forget they were intergrated with the state they were living in for many hundreds of years- had every reason to say 'I am german, I am jewish' or 'I am german, I am slav'

yeh but a lot of this rounding up was done with the help of ibm - there's a very interesting book about it, 'ibm and the holocaust' by edwin black.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, it makes them "bad", "barbaric" or "evil." To view them as just different condones this activity. Are the members of Boko Haram just different from us?

Yes, they are. Their beliefs lead them to assume that one set of rules apply, yours lead you to believe that yours are better. You see "evil" because you're unable to put yourself in their headspace. They would equally see your ways as "evil" because they're unable to put themselves in your headspace.
You appear to have a problem common in the media of your nation - a firm belief that your own perspective is correct, regardless of any other factor. it's unedifying.

 

[editor]

It just gets more depressing in India:

Two India girls gang raped and hanged in Uttar Pradesh
Two teenage girls found hanging from a tree in a village in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh had been gang raped, police say.

A man has been held over the murders of the girls, who police said were 14 and 16.

Three policemen have been removed from duty for not registering cases when the girls were reported missing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-27615590

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think all Pickman's is asking is that we recognise the equally barbaric things that happen every day in this country as well as elsewhere. Scratch the surface (well, in many cases you don't even need to do that) and we're not really that much better.

We don't stone women to death (thank goodness) but we have appallingly low rates of rape conviction. That's nothing to be proud of, it doesn't really make us 'better' than them.

Quite.

 

[cesare]

^ should be on the India rape thread #130

 

[Pickman's model]

^ should be on the India rape thread

to editor i suppose, not to violentpanda?

 

[editor]

^ should be on the India rape thread #130

Ah, I didn't see that thread.

 

[cesare]

to editor i suppose, not to violentpanda?

Yes, I clarified

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting perspectives on this on World Service from Pakistani men and women. More than one blame wider society for these killings. The word 'impunity' was mentioned very forcefully by one contributor, who made the point that most honour killings take place in rural areas where they occur in the open, with the explicit permission of the local 'authorities', often after a tribunal has been held to establish the woman's 'guilt'. Women are simply considered the property of men. A woman marrying someone not of her family's choice is stealing herself from them in effect. This particular incident hit the headlines because it happened in Lahore, but such killings are a daily occurrence in Pakistan, and nobody is ever held to account.

BBC Urdu also receiving many messages of support for the killings.

tbh arguing about whether or not this should be called barbaric is absurd. Right-thinking Pakistanis think it is barbaric. Only someone who agreed with the mindset would disagree, imo.

 

[likesfish]

BBC Urdu also receiving many messages of support.

Fuck How the fuck could you think stoning a pregnant woman to death is a good thing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

BBC Urdu also receiving many messages of support.

Fuck How the fuck could you think stoning a pregnant woman to death is a good thing

Many messages of support, but none would come on air live and express them, although that is partly because those who support these murders are also much less likely to speak English. It is clear that Pakistan is deeply divided over this. imo we should not shy away from calling it barbaric. I know the word has a particular sense of superiority attached to it, but many Pakistanis think it is barbaric - you're letting them down, imo, if you shy away from the strongest condemnation out of some misguided sense of cultural relativity.

 

[weltweit]

There is no doubt in my mind it was barbaric.
There is no way the perpetrators should get away with it.
But quite likely it seems they will.

The whole family structure "possessions" thing seems basically wrong.
I wonder if wider society in Pakistan has the will to change it.

 

[IC3D]

83% of those surveyed support stoning for adultery according to this survey by a US think tank
http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/chapter-2-religion-law-and-society/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nually-why-is-this-still-happening/?tid=hp_mm

That's as damning of a society as you can get really.

Even those who say they identify with the modernizers in a struggle between Islamic fundamentalists and those who want to modernize the country support these measures. About nine-in-ten (91%) Pakistanis who side with the modernizers favor stoning adulterers. A similar proportion of those who side with modernizers (89%) favor punishments like whippings and cutting off of hands for theft and robbery, and 86% favor the death penalty for people who leave Islam. These views are virtually identical to the views of those who identify with Islamic fundamentalists.

This case gets worse. The husband of the stoned woman killed his last wife to marry her and also accuses her family of killing another daughter previously. Pakistan is clearly a darkly violent misogynistic society overly attached to a primitive religious ideology
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...g-honour-killing-admits-strangling-first-wife
I don't get the citing of the holocaust, European imperialism and slavery. Its apologism. Why the dodgy comparisons?

 

[hash tag]

It's difficult to put a decent post into such a contentious debate from a phone, apologies. This is one of thousands of deplorable crimes carried out in Pakistan every year, which just makes everything so much worse. The fact that it was made so public raises itsugly profile around the world and may prompt someone to try and do something, but what? How?
Don't forget that we give these people millions in aid every year, we do a lot of trade with them and they are a nuclear nation to boot. And this is one nation out of many that possibly condones such actions.

Perhaps we, Brits should get our own act in order first. Stop making and selling arms. Stop rendition and torture. Stop bombing other countries or invading them....

To do nothing is to condone it.

 

[Dr Jon]

How the fuck could you think stoning a pregnant woman to death is a good thing

By being a barbarian knuckle-dragger.

There are lots about, unfortunately.

 

[Dowie]

83% of those surveyed support stoning for adultery according to this survey by a US think tank
http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/chapter-2-religion-law-and-society/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nually-why-is-this-still-happening/?tid=hp_mm

I guess if you derive your morals from religious books then you might see nothing wrong such blatantly ridiculous notions when your religious books are interpreted by some conservative types as not only allowing these this but officially endorsing it as a punishment for adultery.

Obviously not all followers of particular religions agree with various interpretations but this is often more than just a 'tribal' issue - its also partly due to certain conservative interpretations of Religion - the Sultan of Brunei has recently decided to bring stoning for adultery into the legal system over there and I've got a feeling its more down to conservative religious views than Brunei having a great tradition of stoning of women/oppressing gays which he might have fondly recalled from his youth.
Religions are shit... conservative versions of Religions are especially shit and lead to shit things like a woman dying as a result of a complication in labour in Ireland because they've got ridiculous abortion legislation through to people thinking that stoning to death is OK as their particular interpretation of 'God' allows it and they don't have to think about morality - for them its defined by what they're told God says is and isn't OK...

 

[Awesome Wells]

I think all Pickman's is asking is that we recognise the equally barbaric things that happen every day in this country as well as elsewhere. Scratch the surface (well, in many cases you don't even need to do that) and we're not really that much better.

We don't stone women to death (thank goodness) but we have appallingly low rates of rape conviction. That's nothing to be proud of, it doesn't really make us 'better' than them.

If a woman was stoned to death outside a courthouse in this country the streets would explode!

 

[Dr Jon]

...
Religions are shit... conservative versions of Religions are especially shit and lead to shit things like a woman dying as a result of a complication in labour in Ireland because they've got ridiculous abortion legislation through to people thinking that stoning to death is OK as their particular interpretation of 'God' allows it and they don't have to think about morality - for them its defined by what they're told God says is and isn't OK...

As always, superstition is used to justify abdication from responsibility.

 

[quiquaquo]

Which are part of a war the talibans ieds bargin basement robot killers, still kill more children but then they are the resistence rather than another bunch of foreign killers

Not sure which world saudi falls into but they funded and are funding the islamic death cult which leas to the use of drones.

What does that mean? Is it English?

 

[purenarcotic]

If a woman was stoned to death outside a courthouse in this country the streets would explode!

There are quite a few examples of honour based killings in the UK, the streets have never exploded.

 

[MrSki]

Seems that the husband strangled his first wife so he could marry Farzana Parveen.

CNN here and Guardian here

 

[Dowie]

There are quite a few examples of honour based killings in the UK, the streets have never exploded.

but that isn't what he said... and I don't think you'd get the police outside the court house just standing by and watching nor significant portions of the public treating this sort of thing as a private matter.

Honour killings here tend to be conducted privately and the police/courts do at least take them a bit more seriously - there isn't a loophole whereby some members of the family can plead guilty then other family members can forgive them under a badly implemented religious law which then allows them to walk free... Kind of flawed if the immediate family can conspire to kill one of their own and then have the power to quash any sentence handed down for the crime.

 

[Sirena]

but that isn't what he said... and I don't think you'd get the police outside the court house just standing by and watching nor significant portions of the public treating this sort of thing as a private matter.

It is worth mentioning that the police chief has denied that any officers were there and stood by and let the family murder their daughter. So it may not be useful for propagandists to promote this as an example of the corruption inherent in Islam. This may just be a family argument that went crazily out of control.

It seems to have been a family dispute involving arranged marriages, money changing hands, promises being made and broken, demands for money from the husband to compensate for having taken advantage of their daughter without their permission, that sort of thing

All this may sound primitive but - apart from the murder - it is part of the tradition of the country. And this idea of a marriage being a formal arrangement, with money changing hands, based on the value or 'burden' of the wife is far from being confined to islam.

A friend of mine was born here but his parents are Ghanaian (nb. xtian not muslim). As a promise to his dying father, he and his girlfriend of ten years or so decide finally to marry. So he has to agree a bride-price and her male relatives come round and they agree a price - and it's not a joke price, it's many thousands of pounds. On top of that, because he has lived with their daughter for 10 years, there is an additional price - a 'tek fe fool' price - because he has taken advantage of their daughter for the last 10 years. And the tek fe fool price is no joke price either.

Ghana is one of the most advanced and settled countries in Africa and still most people choose to stay with their traditions. On the face of it, those traditions belittle women and make them just marketable commodities but those traditions are what they have grown up with and part of their culture.