Barbaric: woman stoned to death in Pakistan

[Belushi]

No, it just makes little sense to separate the two. Religion is a part of culture. In Pakistan it is a very important part of it.

It's the reason there's a Pakistan in fact.

 

[xenon]

i don't suppose the name 'laura wilson' means much to many of the posters so incensed by the brutal killing in lahore. or banaz mahmod.

of course this is the sort of thing which only occurs in backward pakistan

the brutality of a lenny murphy or of a fred west, the sheer number of killings by someone like harold shipman - barbarism alive and well and living in britain. so it's really rather perverse to suggest that this country's less barbaric than pakistan or india or wherever.

Well there's 2 things wrong with this. Firstly no one's suggesting barbaric thigns don't happen in the UK. This thread is not however about any of those events.

Secondly. Your mismatched comparisons ignore the particular context in which the murder being talked about occurred.

Of course Pakistan seems to have a deeply patriarchal society. Not unlike our own. But it also has a much larger rural disconnected poor population, which for the most part is not seen on the same scale as in the UK. A much higher adherence to tradition and religious doctrine in a more rigid social structure. Again, outside the main urban centres. These aren't problems inherent to Islam if anyone thinks I'm suggesting that. But a poor, possibly largely illiterate and disconnected rural population, informed by a rigid religious interpreatation in a patriarchal society, that's the back drop.

(You may now laugh at the irony of me spelling something wrong whilst making such a point etc.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes. And as is normally the case, the answer lies partly in many indirect things. Teaching people to read, for example - something as simple as that - and not just to read the Koran, as can happen, but providing real education and access to the world of the written word. Pakistan has one of the highest illiteracy rates in the world - over half the adult population is illiterate.

With the will to do it, such a situation can be changed very quickly. In Cuba in the 1960s, a largely illiterate rural population was taught to read by armies of volunteers from the cities. It can be done.

As I said earlier in reply to Jeff, the problem of illiteracy won't go away, because (as ever) it's in the interests of the ruling classes to keep their workers uneducated, and state schooling is so sparse outside of the cities that it might as well not exist. As for "reading the Koran", many of the inmates of madrassahs don't learn to read, only to recite.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

What is "evil"? Evil can't be quantified in any meaningful way. At best we can say something is evil when it offends against what we hold to be right/good/true. It's a value judgement, and making value judgements is fine, as long as you acknowledge that your judgement is pretty much meaningless outside of your own social context. Condemn by all means, but keep in mind that you're condemning from a different perspective, where we've been educated to our own particular set of rules - rules which aren't universal by any means.

Morality is by definition normative. It's not about describing how the world is, but how it ought to be. It's perfectly coherent to believe that women ought to be universally free from misogynist killings, but realise that there are unfortunately various structures that make it difficult to achieve that universal aspiration. Proponents of the universality of the immorality of misogynist killing (and all misogyny) need not believe that it is some sort of 'metaphysical truth' out there in the universe, but rather can understand it as a normative position that is backed up with compelling reasons that counter-positions lack. I believe that everybody on this thread, including you, actually thinks this.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I don't argue from a "cultural imperialism" perspective myself, just from a psychological perspective - if you're reared to a set of rules, then those rules are, in the absence of contrary arguments, what you live by. Judging people solely on the basis that our rules are different to theirs is daft, and too many people on this thread have done exactly that.

I agree to an extent, but such 'rules' are rarely fixed or absolute, nor is their effect so totalising that they entirely obliterate human agency. In the context of asymmetric power relations there may also be those that go along with such rules not merely because they are all they know, but also because because they 'benefit' from them (e.g. men going along with rules that relegate women to second class status - happens in the 'west' too btw).

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there's 2 things wrong with this. Firstly no one's suggesting barbaric thigns don't happen in the UK.

you've not read the thread then have you or you would have seen farmerbarleymow say precisely that.

This thread is not however about any of those events.

Secondly. Your mismatched comparisons ignore the particular context in which the murder being talked about occurred.

Of course Pakistan seems to have a deeply patriarchal society. Not unlike our own. But it also has a much larger rural disconnected poor population, which for the most part is not seen on the same scale as in the UK. A much higher adherence to tradition and religious doctrine in a more rigid social structure. Again, outside the main urban centres. These aren't problems inherent to Islam if anyone thinks I'm suggesting that. But a poor, possibly largely illiterate and disconnected rural population, informed by a rigid religious interpreatation in a patriarchal society, that's the back drop.

(You may now laugh at the irony of me spelling something wrong whilst making such a point etc.)

yes, the context in which the murder occurred is peculiar to pakistan. but this sort of murder is by no means limited to pakistan and many murders of a similar nature have occurred in this country. yet while there's been much bile on this thread about murders in pakistan i cannot recall a thread where people have been so agitated about the murder of a woman in this country. there is barbarity and to spare in this country as the killings of people by e.g. lenny murphy and so on show. it's the discrepancy between what some people have said on this thread, and the real world which i have objected to.

 

[hash tag]

Re: onour killings, I have heard of people in this country been returned to their culture based country to face execution/honour killing ( and for arranged marriages, FGM Etc).
Is an honour killing any worse than a state sponsored execution? One is certainly the cold blooded murder in the name of the law, buy hey, thats ok!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As I said earlier in reply to Jeff, the problem of illiteracy won't go away, because (as ever) it's in the interests of the ruling classes to keep their workers uneducated, and state schooling is so sparse outside of the cities that it might as well not exist. As for "reading the Koran", many of the inmates of madrassahs don't learn to read, only to recite.

One of the more depressing aspects of Pakistan's illiteracy problem is that it is higher among the under-35s than the over-35s. Pakistan has the demographic of a country whose birth-rate has been well over 2 for a long time - a pyramid shape. So what that tells me is that while the absolute number of literate people in Pakistan may be rising still, the proportion is dropping, and the extra people being born are not being matched at all by expanding education resources. This bodes very badly for the future - it is a problem that is not even being tackled at the moment in any meaningful way, but said ruling classes, the literate minority, may live to rue the day they chose not to educate the masses. Short-sighted doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

[hash tag]

what makes the literacy problem even worse is that it is predominately boys who get an education as the girls wont need it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Re: onour killings, I have heard of people in this country been returned to their culture based country to face execution/honour killing ( and for arranged marriages, FGM Etc).
Is an honour killing any worse than a state sponsored execution? One is certainly the cold blooded murder in the name of the law, buy hey, thats ok!

All retributive and revenge killings are wrong imo, whether state sponsored or not. I guess the level of wrongfulness might depend upon the nature of the execution (whether it's a relatively painless like the electric chair or trap door hanging on the one hand, or stoning and kick-stool hanging on the other) the justness of the punishment (death penalty for mass murder would be less objectionable than for adultery say) and the legitimacy of the justice system (procedural fairness, accountability, democratic mandate etc). Having said that I think I'd just opt for saying that they are both basically wrong. Drone murders are probably on a par with 'honour killings'.

 

[Pickman's model]

All retributive and revenge killings are wrong imo, whether state sponsored or not. I guess the level of wrongfulness might depend upon the nature of the execution (whether it's a relatively painless like the electric chair or trap door hanging on the one hand, or stoning and kick-stool hanging on the other) the justness of the punishment (death penalty for mass murder would be less objectionable than for adultery say) and the legitimacy of the justice system (procedural fairness, accountability, democratic mandate etc). Having said that I think I'd just opt for saying that they are both basically wrong. Drone murders are probably on a par with 'honour killings'.

have kick-stools ever been used for hangings?

i don't think they'd work so well

 

[frogwoman]

Was the Holocaust an act of war? Yes. I've read some of the original articles where Hitler told his people that the Jews were bad, and it very much reads like an act of war.

Then most of the worst parts of the Holocaust happened during the second world war.

No it wasn't because it targeted people that couldn't fight back.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

have kick-stools ever been used for hangings?

i don't think they'd work so well

Couldn't be bothered to google the correct term for 'hanging by kicking the stool away'. Just done so and apparently it's one method of 'short drop' hanging.

 

[frogwoman]

Also judging by the messages of support and apologism for Elliott Rogers misogynistic killing spree, claiming that its womens fault because they wouldnt shag him, including some of the comments on this very forum, the fact that Jimmy savile, Cyril Smith, etc, got away with it for years, I'd say that a number of people do harbour similar attitudes towards women in the UK quite frankly

 

[Pickman's model]

Also judging by the messages of support and apologism for Elliott Rogers misogynistic killing spree, claiming that its womens fault because they wouldnt shag him, including some of the comments on this very forum, the fact that Jimmy savile, Cyril Smith, etc, got away with it for years, I'd say that a number of people do harbour similar attitudes towards women in the UK quite frankly

yeh i think that pretending this isn't a problem here just sweeps it under the carpet and belittles the numerous examples and experiences of sexism and misogyny - from all parts of that continuum - which people share here and which are regularly reported in the media.

 

[frogwoman]

yeh i think that pretending this isn't a problem here just sweeps it under the carpet and belittles the numerous examples and experiences of sexism and misogyny - from all parts of that continuum - which people share here and which are regularly reported in the media.

Yeah pretty much all women have been sexually harassed so saying it is just Pakistanis doesn't really work and there are plenty of people who don't see anything wrong with it

 

[goldenecitrone]

So I've just caught up with the news on this and it turns out the husband to be had strangled his last wife to death in order to be able to marry the woman who was stoned to death by her own family. Love made me strangle her, he claims. Bizarre.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Yeah pretty much all women have been sexually harassed so saying it is just Pakistanis doesn't really work and there are plenty of people who don't see anything wrong with it

Misogyny is a major problem in most (if not every?) society. I don't think anybody on this thread would deny this. However, the discussion on this thread has been overlayed with various other concerns about racism, apologism, hypocrisy and complacency. Beneath all the rhetoric, and differences in emphasis, I really don't think there's as much disagreement here as it might seem on the surface.

 

[Dr Jon]

So I've just caught up with the news on this and it turns out the husband to be had strangled his last wife to death in order to be able to marry the woman who was stoned to death by her own family. Love made me strangle her, he claims. Bizarre.

Aye. Totally fucked up.

 

[Belushi]

have kick-stools ever been used for hangings?

i don't think they'd work so well

I'm sure all Librarians tell themselves that.

 

[DotCommunist]

you want a three legged stool. I pity the fools who sit on them. They are inherently unstable.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sure all Librarians tell themselves that.

wouldn't need to stoop to something so unrefined. librarians are adept at finding the desired information, in this case here http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also judging by the messages of support and apologism for Elliott Rogers misogynistic killing spree, claiming that its womens fault because they wouldnt shag him, including some of the comments on this very forum, the fact that Jimmy savile, Cyril Smith, etc, got away with it for years, I'd say that a number of people do harbour similar attitudes towards women in the UK quite frankly

I don't think the situation in Pakistan is remotely comparable tbh. Bad things happen here, too, of course. But does your comparison with Savile and Smith help to understand society and women's place in it in Pakistan? I don't think it does at all. The majority of people in Pakistan, it would appear, and a large majority in rural areas, support the principle of honour killings: 'she stepped out of line so she deserved it'. There has never been a majority or anything like it here supporting child abuse.

 

[weltweit]

I suppose many will have seen the news of the two Indian girls who were gang raped and then found hanging from a tree. When the father went to the police to ask for help he was asked what his caste was and then ignored.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-27639735

 

[Dr Jon]

Terming the gangrape and murder as “unfortunate”, UP Chief Minister Akhilesh Yadav on Friday ordered the police to arrest all the accused immediately and said a fast-track court be constituted to ensure that they were duly punished

link

 

[Dr Jon]

... and in Malaysia:
Malaysian teenager gang-raped by 38 men

 

[Sirena]

...and in Britain:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/schoolboy-guilty-of-tourist-gangrape-1266577.html

 

[isvicthere?]

Misogyny is a major problem in most (if not every?) society. I don't think anybody on this thread would deny this. However, the discussion on this thread has been overlayed with various other concerns about racism, apologism, hypocrisy and complacency. Beneath all the rhetoric, and differences in emphasis, I really don't think there's as much disagreement here as it might seem on the surface.

Classic urban thread, then: huge argument among people in basic agreement over terms of reference and degrees of emphasis.

We really are a bunch of nuance cases.

 

[Dowie]

It is worth mentioning that the police chief has denied that any officers were there and stood by and let the family murder their daughter. So it may not be useful for propagandists to promote this as an example of the corruption inherent in Islam. This may just be a family argument that went crazily out of control.

Just to follow on from this point re: the police officers standing by and doing nothing - the attack did happen outside a court house and though you've read some initial denial from a police chief (hardly surprising that a police force will try to deny wrongdoing) I don't think its something that can be dismissed quite like that - it certainly does seem that they stood by/didn't intervene and seemingly now are being investigated:

Pakistani police officers will be investigated because they didn't intervene when Parveen was publicly beaten to death with bricks, a court official said.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on Friday called the killing "totally unacceptable" and said it's a "great shame" for such a crime to happen in the presence of police.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/31/world/asia/pakistan-honor-murder/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

[Sirena]

Just to follow on from this point re: the police officers standing by and doing nothing - the attack did happen outside a court house and though you've read some initial denial from a police chief (hardly surprising that a police force will try to deny wrongdoing) I don't think its something that can be dismissed quite like that - it certainly does seem that they stood by/didn't intervene and seemingly now are being investigated:



http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/31/world/asia/pakistan-honor-murder/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

That CNN report is, at least, surprisingly balanced and fair. I'm no great supporter of Islam (or any of the Abrahamic religions). It just riles me when people use tragic stories for what are obvious propaganda purposes.