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Banning Private Jets

two sheds said:
But ... but ... but ... we're going to have a new generation of ethical environmentally sound private jets that won't cause pollution of any kind. THAT's why we shouldn't oppress the fantastically rich by banning the shitty polluting ones they've got now. The market will sort it all out just like it has solved global heating.

Eventually. Or it may not but who cares eh.
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Sorry to be pedandic, but the new tech isn't jet based, it's just uses props. It's the shape of it causing air to flow more smoothly that makes it very efficient.

If they manage to scale it, then it will affect us all, because it means the bottom of the private charter market is much more accessable.

We might even see a time where a small party of people would be able to charter one of these new planes and the trip would be greener and cheaper than taking a commercial passenger jet on certain trips.

It's counter-productive to think of the private charter market as the exclusive preserve of the rich, because this tech is all set to change that, making flying greener for everyone, not just the rich.
 
MickiQ said:
Private jets exist for the same reason that exclusive gym clubs or golf courses exist, so that the people using them don't have to mix with the Yahoo's. There is no way private planes are ever going to be banned, the people who might make the decision to ban them also use them and talk to the other people who do and not to the grubby peasants demanding they be banned.
Even the French who are more egalitarian than us or the Americans have started by trying to encourage the Great Unwashed to use trains rather than banning private planes.
As for this fugly thing wll maybe it will take off especially in the US where most private flights occur, I can see the 80% off fuel cost appealing to corporate accountants.
The only way that emissions from flying private or otherwise is going to come down is from technological advances either through contraptions like these (and it might be a great seller for all I know, chance for the super-rich to claim how much they love the planet) or through things like eco-fuels which are made by recycling CO2 out of the atmosphere.
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The gym is a bad example. If I didn't want to mix with others while getting in shape, I'd simply have a gym equpment installed in my house.

Or if I really wanted to show off, I'd send a load of gym equipment around someone elses house with a note saying "You stink of wee and I hate you soo much, I've donated some gym equipment for you to excercise indoors on, so that you can get fit without scaring the general public with your ugly mug !!! xx"

Re new tech. It will be great. Those planes will be great for stag and hen parties to Prague.
 
Again being pedantic there are private jets and there are private jets and their use needs to be defined.
To get around this, a company could own the private jet and it could be rented by a single person for a very short trip or a long haul flight.
Are we talking about small jets or great big ones.
The Boeing 720 was an aircraft designed for 156 passengers.
Back in the day, one was bought by a record company and rented out to bands. how many flew on them each time, who knows, but you
bet it wasn't over a 100 people.
Alternatively, are we talking about smaller jets, capable of seating just a few passengers that could possibly be owned by a family and yet is capable of long distances.
An early example of the large jet rental thing is the Starship....
1685459500585.png
Something thats recently crossed my radar anyway, is the use of helicopters which could be used to ferry a few members of a cycling team just a few miles at a time.
 
hash tag said:
Again being pedantic there are private jets and there are private jets and their use needs to be defined.
To get around this, a company could own the private jet and it could be rented by a single person for a very short trip or a long haul flight.
Are we talking about small jets or great big ones.
The Boeing 720 was an aircraft designed for 156 passengers.
Back in the day, one was bought by a record company and rented out to bands. how many flew on them each time, who knows, but you
bet it wasn't over a 100 people.
Alternatively, are we talking about smaller jets, capable of seating just a few passengers that could possibly be owned by a family and yet is capable of long distances.
An early example of the large jet rental thing is the Starship....
View attachment 376952
Something thats recently crossed my radar anyway, is the use of helicopters which could be used to ferry a few members of a cycling team just a few miles at a time.
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That until recently, was an over simplication. Used to be two different specs of Air Operator Certificate (something you need if you want anyone to pay to use your plane). >19 seats (including crew)AOC's were the norm in the private jet industry...even if was an A319 or 727
 
StakerOne said:
Sorry to be pedandic, but the new tech isn't jet based, it's just uses props. It's the shape of it causing air to flow more smoothly that makes it very efficient.

If they manage to scale it, then it will affect us all, because it means the bottom of the private charter market is much more accessable.

We might even see a time where a small party of people would be able to charter one of these new planes and the trip would be greener and cheaper than taking a commercial passenger jet on certain trips.

It's counter-productive to think of the private charter market as the exclusive preserve of the rich, because this tech is all set to change that, making flying greener for everyone, not just the rich.
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by greener you mean less damaging to the environment, which isn't really green is it
 
particularly because it's not even available yet - and existing jets won't be retired for a good 20+ years you'd think. So not a solution at all really.
 
two sheds said:
particularly because it's not even available yet - and existing jets won't be retired for a good 20+ years you'd think. So not a solution at all really.
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They'd be retired sooner rather than later if they aren't cost effective against newer competition.
No one is going to maintain a charter jet, if no one is chartering it.
 
StakerOne said:
They'd be retired sooner rather than later if they aren't cost effective against newer competition.
No one is going to maintain a charter jet, if no one is chartering it.
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What are the costs of fuel versus costs of a new plane? And a bit of a clue - they're not all used on charter flights for hen and stag parties in Prague. Great solution to global heating this one is.

By the way how come you have so much contempt for the "middle class" yet you inexplicably want them as neighbours in your upper middle class gated community? Or do you think gated communities are full of the upper class and working class? You're a joke.
 
two sheds said:
What are the costs of fuel versus costs of a new plane? And a bit of a clue - they're not all used on charter flights for hen and stag parties in Prague. Great solution to global heating this one is.

By the way how come you have so much contempt for the "middle class" yet you inexplicably want them as neighbours in your upper middle class gated community? Or do you think gated communities are full of the upper class and working class? You're a joke.
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I'm sorry I'm quite sarcastic and that you're not good at detecting sarcism or poor attempts at humour. Can we be friends now?
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Let me know when you can control the clouds. Our boat has an 8hp diesel motor to get it out of the Beaulieu River, once on the Solent the sails come out and free cruising is nice as you like and no African kids had to mine any crap for your pleasure. If the wind doesn't blow, don't go.
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Pah ! Once nearly took out a row boat (he wasn't amused) goosewinging a Jeanneau 32 upto Bucklers Hard. I blame the crew, could not see fuck all on helm
 
StakerOne said:
I'm sorry I'm quite sarcastic and that you're not good at detecting sarcism or poor attempts at humour. Can we be friends now?
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Well yes but you're right wing and the right wing since the 70s has been saying market forces will be enough to control global heating. Your arguments here and on other threads have been poorly sourced and make no sense. I'm glad you're sarcastic about your own world view, I think we can all follow you on that, so yes we can indeed be friends now.
 
two sheds said:
Well yes but you're right wing and the right wing since the 70s has been saying market forces will be enough to control global heating. Your arguments here and on other threads have been poorly sourced and make no sense. I'm glad you're sarcastic about your own world view, I think we can all follow you on that, so yes we can indeed be friends now.
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I didn't know the right was one monolithic block with consensus spanning decades on the Earth's thermo-dynamics!

Forget about spats on other threads. If you want to challenge me on something I've said on this one, then just quote the claim I'm making and ask for a source to back it up. Easy. I'll give you a demonstration:

two sheds said:
particularly because it's not even available yet - and existing jets won't be retired for a good 20+ years you'd think. So not a solution at all really.
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Can you give me a source or some sources that shows most or all jets won't be retired for another 20+ years?

I have precedence on my side of the argument:

Why was the Boeing 747 Discontinued? (Cool Pilot Sky Art!)

Despite its immense size, the 747 proved to be a game-changer in the aviation industry, offering increased capacity and comfort for passengers. However, its maintenance costs and fuel inefficiency in the face of newer, more efficient aircraft ultimately led to its discontinuation.
 
StakerOne said:
I didn't know the right was one monolithic block with consensus spanning decades on the Earth's thermo-dynamics!

Forget about spats on other threads. If you want to challenge me on something I've said on this one, then just quote the claim I'm making and ask for a source to back it up. Easy. I'll give you a demonstration:



Can you give me a source or some sources that shows most or all jets won't be retired for another 20+ years?

I have precedence on my side of the argument:

Why was the Boeing 747 Discontinued? (Cool Pilot Sky Art!)

Despite its immense size, the 747 proved to be a game-changer in the aviation industry, offering increased capacity and comfort for passengers. However, its maintenance costs and fuel inefficiency in the face of newer, more efficient aircraft ultimately led to its discontinuation.
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Systemic avionics overhaul a couple of years back brought an abrupt end to a fair few older models so probably is skewed that way at the moment
 
gosub said:
Systemic avionics overhaul a couple of years back brought an abrupt end to a fair few older models so probably is skewed that way at the moment
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True BUT the kind of fuel savings on this new tech as way more profound than say newer generations of aircraft over 747s.

People aren't going to fly around on planes that guzzle 5 times as much fuel.

It's a valid point that these new prop planes aren't around now, but it can't be that long. I guess the biggest hurdle would be ticking all the regulatory / safety tickboxes.
 
StakerOne said:
I didn't know the right was one monolithic block with consensus spanning decades on the Earth's thermo-dynamics!

Forget about spats on other threads. If you want to challenge me on something I've said on this one, then just quote the claim I'm making and ask for a source to back it up. Easy. I'll give you a demonstration:



Can you give me a source or some sources that shows most or all jets won't be retired for another 20+ years?

I have precedence on my side of the argument:

Why was the Boeing 747 Discontinued? (Cool Pilot Sky Art!)

Despite its immense size, the 747 proved to be a game-changer in the aviation industry, offering increased capacity and comfort for passengers. However, its maintenance costs and fuel inefficiency in the face of newer, more efficient aircraft ultimately led to its discontinuation.
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Also from there: "United Airlines ultimately decided to retire the 747 because of the maintenance hassles associated with the model. This plane had become less efficient over time."

I see elsewhere that "The four engines of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet burn approximately 10 to 11 tonnes of fuel an hour when in the cruise. " So I'd say it took over 50 years to phase it out considering how much flights there are a year and the amount of CO2 they've pumped out.

When are these new planes coming? How many private airplanes are there now, when realistically they will be phased out, what is the total CO2 that will have been emitted by then, and what contribution that will make to global heating? Fair enough if the facts back up what you're saying but it's your fucking thread you provide the figures.
 
StakerOne said:
True BUT the kind of fuel savings on this new tech as way more profound than say newer generations of aircraft over 747s.

People aren't going to fly around on planes that guzzle 5 times as much fuel.

It's a valid point that these new prop planes aren't around now, but it can't be that long. I guess the biggest hurdle would be ticking all the regulatory / safety tickboxes.
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Wish them luck however their competitors will spend quite a bit of time pointing at things like maintenence support which take time to develop (like they do with Pilatus) and if it's anything like the Piaggio Avanti cabin noise is also going to count against it.

Looks like they are looking for type cert this year so doing the hard bit with the regulators at the moment
 
two sheds said:
Also from there: "United Airlines ultimately decided to retire the 747 because of the maintenance hassles associated with the model. This plane had become less efficient over time."

I see elsewhere that "The four engines of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet burn approximately 10 to 11 tonnes of fuel an hour when in the cruise. " So I'd say it took over 50 years to phase it out considering how much flights there are a year and the amount of CO2 they've pumped out.

When are these new planes coming? How many private airplanes are there now, when realistically they will be phased out, what is the total CO2 that will have been emitted by then, and what contribution that will make to global heating? Fair enough if the facts back up what you're saying but it's your fucking thread you provide the figures.
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Boeing may have stopped making em but there are still about 500 747s still working, will be a while yet til they are all museums pieces...In part because of your question 'when are these new planes coming?' Demand for aircraft outstrip airframe manufacturing in prettymuch all market segments.

Approx 22000 private jets in the world, half of which are is the US
 
gosub said:
Quite a segmented market but that one exists.

Other factors include pets and luggage, convenience and discretion.

Owners have another thing....your average owner has to travel...hanging around anywhere too long will get them a tax bill


. Owner will take a portion of these and get the rest from charter work
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I once had the job (amongst other things) of keeping two Hymac 580s gainfully employed. I was never more glad than when a new person got taken on, I moved up a step and passed on the responsibility. They needed twenty hours hire a week to keep up the payments on them.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I once had the job (amongst other things) of keeping two Hymac 580s gainfully employed. I was never more glad than when a new person got taken on, I moved up a step and passed on the responsibility. They needed twenty hours hire a week to keep up the payments on them.
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Back in the day worked out 5hours a week had to 'find' for a Falcon then we'd get a free one every 3 years
 
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