Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[NoXion]

Should we abolish the difference between manslaughter, murder and involuntary homicide then? I mean, as far as the dead person is concerned, what's the difference? Dead is dead, right?

Come on man.

Nah, I think we should treat people differently to animals.

 

[NoXion]

What did you illustrate sorry? Pesticides are used much much much more in monocultures than they are in agroecological systems, as you seem to already know. But what does it matter right? As soon as I kill one slug feasting on my cabbage or swat a mosquito I am as bad as an industrial farmer with 100,000 pigs on a production line, right? Dead is dead.

Well if you believe in animal rights, then that would make you a murderer, no?

 

[Flavour]

Nah, I think we should treat people differently to animals.

Okay so there's a difference between manslaughter and murder but there's no difference between accidentally killing an animal in the process of growing a carrot and keeping chickens stacked on top of each other in small cages for all their short lives. Gotcha. I'm done with this, ciao

 

[Flavour]

Well if you believe in animal rights, then that would make you a murderer, no?

I don't believe much in animal rights for mosquitos or slugs tbh, my only regret in killing them is that they weren't eaten by a bird or some other natural predator

 

[ddraig]

Well if you believe in animal rights, then that would make you a murderer, no?

What do you propose people who want to eat as cruelty free as possible actually eat then?
How about you do you and let vegans do vegan? More meat for you then, yay! Why do the choices of vegans bother you so much to pick holes and keep asserting whatabouttery?

 

[8ball]

...accidentally killing an animal in the process of growing a carrot...

 

[8ball]

I am one person, so my impact is negligible.

This is pretty morally iffy. It's perfectly consistent for vegan/veggies or whatever to want to be out of what they see as a chain of animal suffering.

 

[NoXion]

What do you propose people who want to eat as cruelty free as possible actually eat then?
How about you do you and let vegans do vegan? More meat for you then, yay! Why do the choices of vegans bother you so much to pick holes and keep asserting whatabouttery?

I dunno, that's between them and their consciences.

I'm not stopping anyone from becoming vegan or consuming vegan food, I don't think I'm that influential.

 

[ddraig]

I dunno, that's between them and their consciences.

I'm not stopping anyone from becoming vegan or consuming vegan food, I don't think I'm that influential.

Why keep posting shit about bugs being killed for crops if you don't have an issue with animals being killed for your plate? Why do you care?
Of course you're not "stopping anyone from becoming vegan or consuming vegan food", no one has even said that

 

[NoXion]

Why keep posting shit about bugs being killed for crops if you don't have an issue with animals being killed for your plate? Why do you care?

Because I'm curious and I'm not telepathic.

 

[8ball]

Why keep posting shit about bugs being killed for crops if you don't have an issue with animals being killed for your plate?

Bugs, reptiles, amphibians, birds, small mammals, larger mammals...

 

[ddraig]

Telepathic about what?
If you see no issue about killing animals for food then what are you curious about? Other than hypocrisy hunting

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We're always going to be talking past one another when one side thinks all meat farming is morally wrong, while the other side thinks only some forms of meat farming are wrong.

For instance, I don't have a particular ethical problem with 'traditional' sheep farming. The lambs are born in spring and live for one summer before most of them are killed. Those that are spared get to live perhaps six years until they are also killed. In the wild, sheep don't have such different life expectancy really - most die in their first year; if they survive that, they can live up to maybe 10-12 years, but more usually a bit less.

I also don't have a particular ethical problem with fishing if it's done sustainably. For most fish species that are caught by humans, humans are merely one of many potential predators. If we're fishing sustainably, we're not affecting average fish life chances much at all.

 

[platinumsage]

Get off of my potential quinoa, you bloody more-intelligent-than-pigs varmints!

 

[ddraig]

Start the handwringing!

Meat, cheese and gas will cost more under new carbon tax

Boris Johnson considers new plans to fight emissions and hit net-zero carbon target

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[8ball]

Start the handwringing!

Meat, cheese and gas will cost more under new carbon tax

Boris Johnson considers new plans to fight emissions and hit net-zero carbon target

www.telegraph.co.uk

Idea was binned later that day. Was a small part of a bunch of things under consideration to hit carbon targets.
Story seemed pretty restricted to right-wing rags, possibly as an attempt to kaibosh the idea - the Taxpayers Alliance and assorted Tory MP's had a (non-literal) cow about it. Also came while the German government were considering something similar, and as of the story the UK Government were only "refusing to rule it out", so some leveraging of the Brexiter element was possibly in effect too.

 

[Spymaster]

Idea was binned later that day. Was a small part of a bunch of things under consideration to hit carbon targets.
Story seemed pretty restricted to right-wing rags, possibly as an attempt to kaibosh the idea - the Taxpayers Alliance and assorted Tory MP's had a (non-literal) cow about it. Also came while the German government were considering something similar, and as of that story the Government were only "refusing to rule it out", so some leveraging of the Brexiter element was possibly in effect too.

Stop the handwringing!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

fwiw I'm generally opposed to the idea of using pricing to control the consumption of particular goods or substances, whether that's meat and gas or booze and fags. Generally these are regressive taxes that hit the poorest the hardest, while the rich consume away barely noticing the change.

 

[8ball]

fwiw I'm generally opposed to the idea of using pricing to control the consumption of particular goods or substances, whether that's meat and gas or booze and fags. Generally these are regressive taxes that hit the poorest the hardest, while the rich consume away barely noticing the change.

True, though I don't think that was the reason for nixing this one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

True, though I don't think that was the reason for nixing this one.

Sure. It's my answer to why I would probably oppose such a measure, though. If a resource is limited or if it needs to be limited, the only fair way to manage its consumption is through rationing. I wouldn't necessarily oppose the idea of meat rationing if it came about as part of a process to make farming practices more humane and more sustainable.

 

[8ball]

Sure. It's my answer to why I would probably oppose such a measure, though. If a resource is limited or if it needs to be limited, the only fair way to manage its consumption is through rationing. I wouldn't necessarily oppose the idea of meat rationing.

Who doesn't love a meat raffle?

 

[Flavour]

fwiw I'm generally opposed to the idea of using pricing to control the consumption of particular goods or substances, whether that's meat and gas or booze and fags. Generally these are regressive taxes that hit the poorest the hardest, while the rich consume away barely noticing the change.

What about the subsidies that keep the prices of many goods artificially low?

 

[8ball]

What about the subsidies that keep the prices of many goods artificially low?

Evening out subsidies across the meat/dairy vs. fruit and veg industries might be a start, and harder for people like the Taxpayers Alliance and National Farmers Unions to argue against.

 

[Saul Goodman]

1. not really comparable though
2. there is at least a (faulted but better than nothing) Fair Trade system in place

there is plenty of human suffering in the cultivation of any crop you care to name really, from bananas to rice to coffee, avocados, i could go on. and of course it counts.

but this thread is about the suffering of animals at human hands for our pleasure.

You're right, it isn't comparable. We're rearing animals to feed humans, and (mostly) keeping it as cruelty free as possible, whilst the humble cocoa bean, born out of slavery and deferestation, is grown purely for our indulgence.
If we're going to berate people for their dietary choices, let's start with those that directly harm our fellow humans, then move on to less important matters.

I was answering a question, so my post was relevant.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What about the subsidies that keep the prices of many goods artificially low?

That's a huge topic, isn't it? I've said quite a few times that I'd like to see massive reforms made to how we farm. That would surely include changing the subsidy system so that sustainable practices are promoted. I couldn't speak to the details of that. Maybe you could show which subsidies you think are damaging. I'd probably agree with you - some massive mistakes have been made in the last 60-odd years regarding which farming practices have been encouraged.

However, subsidies that keep down prices of particular goods don't suffer from the same social problems as taxation or price fixing to keep prices up. They're not regressive as they don't hit the poorest the hardest.

 

[Flavour]

We're rearing animals to feed humans, and (mostly) keeping it as cruelty free as possible, whilst the humble cocoa bean, born out of slavery and deferestation, is grown purely for our indulgence.

LOL @ that (mostly)... there are none so blind as those that will not see! The vast vast vast majority of the meat in countries like the UK comes from factory farms, which I classify as cruel.

There is nothing particularly "humble" about the cocoa bean compared to any other plant, but it is very telling how you choose to anthropomorphize a plant in order to strengthen your deflective whatabouttery ... yet will you anthropomorphize the animals we raise and kill in their billions and billions in horrendous conditions, for your indulgence? No, cos you like pork belly, or something.

Dick.

 

[ddraig]

LOL @ that (mostly)... there are none so blind as those that will not see! The vast vast vast majority of the meat in countries like the UK comes from factory farms, which I classify as cruel.

There is nothing particularly "humble" about the cocoa bean compared to any other plant, but it is very telling how you choose to anthropomorphize a plant in order to strengthen your deflective whatabouttery ... yet will you anthropomorphize the animals we raise and kill in their billions and billions in horrendous conditions, for your indulgence? No, cos you like pork belly, or something.

Dick.

butbutbut.... he gets his passed over the fence after being lovingly raised and it having the loveliest death possible

 

[Flavour]

the loveliest death possible

it doesn't matter how they die ddraig - dead is dead!!!!

 

[platinumsage]

butbutbut.... he gets his passed over the fence after being lovingly raised and it having the loveliest death possible

That's still not ok though is it? You appear not to be objecting just to factory farming, but to humans behaving as omnivores.

 

[WouldBe]

LOL @ that (mostly)... there are none so blind as those that will not see! The vast vast vast majority of the meat in countries like the UK comes from factory farms, which I classify as cruel.

And there's a lot that proves "ignorance is bliss".