Avatar (James Cameron) [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter The Octagon
- Start date
Are you friends with lots of teenage girls and if so can I go partying with you?
Yeah I work with loads and they all fancy me
And yes, but it'll cost you a fortune on flights 'cos I'm not shipping them to fucking stocious Ireland every fucking weekend.
Pingu
Credo
Like I said a film can only be as interesting as the person watching it.
As for the hype, well actually the hype almost worked against it, there was a massive backlash in the two weeks running up to it's release and certainly me and my girlfriend went in expecting the worst, to be really pleasantly surprised by not only it's aesthetics but the not so "sub" political subtext that has a lot more balls than 99% of pseudo critical War movies.
Sure it has it's tripe Noble Savage, at one with nature cliches and predictably sticks to the standard "Hero" narrative and the inherent structural privileging that implies ie the "human" lead doesn't simply join the Na'vi but ends up leading them, but to focus on these obvious failings universal to almost every mainstream movie is to miss the many ways the film stands out, for example;
The typical role of the noble savage as providing another perspective on our societies, and in doing so acting to actually improve their functioning. Instead the role of the noble savage is total in this film, the lessons can't be simply be assimilated into our society by just taking a few platitudes from here or there and sticking them in a corporate mission statement or whatever, instead it requires a complete and violent break with our society, indeed the lead character gives up his crippled and alienated human body.
The film has the balls to totally pick a side, to reject any pathetic liberal handwringing, wavering or humanisation or justification for the individual motives of those on the companies side. Anyone used to American anti war movies knows that primarily they are about American tragedies, they we are meant to empathise primarily with the pain and anguish the war inflicts on the American pscyhe, with the hundreds and thousands of dead civilians and enemies a prop for indulging the self pity of the US.
Another thing in this film is the complete lack of 'civilians' as such, there are no good innocents who are caught up in a war between two sides, there are no good innocent peaceful Na'vi opposed to the violent, insurgent Na'vi.
Avatar is the closest Hollywood will ever let you get to cheerleading the US military getting it's fucking balls rolled and sure that doesn't make for perfect communist politics, after all I'm no big fan of third worldism, it certainly makes it more gutsy than 99% of films and pretty refreshing for a Hollywood block buster action sci fi.
for the first time ever i think i am going to agree with revol
this may sound trite but i actually felt empathy for the smurfs when it all kicked off. not an easy thing for a film to make me do tbh and i was REALLY glad when the military dudes got their butts kicked. yeah a bit contrived and cliched in parts but an enjoyable film to watch. the visuals were really really good and the cgi very realistic. not a clasic blockbuster but worth an evening out. in parts it felt like an american guilt trip over the various indigenous populations that they have screwed over in their time and i can fairly easily swap out the smurfs for "red indians" in some scenes but it didnt really detract from the film.
Motown_ben
Well-Known Member
totally agree with this. saw it thursday night and tho i was really looking forward to it i came out well disspointed. Too long and middle section is dull as hell.
What are all these Hollywood action blockbusters that indulge in liberal handwringing when it comes to the depiction of the bad guys? I can't think of any.
Star Wars - the Empire is just plain evil
Matrix - evil computers controlling police and corporations with Men in Suits as the main heavies
Pirates of the Caribbean - evil East India company
Terminator - more evil computers
Alien/s - evil money-grabbing Company
Lord of the Rings - evil dark lord
Harry Potter - evil dark lord
Have I missed a whole subgenre of action film in which the bad guys are sympathetic and the good guys end up reaching a compromise with them instead of blowing them all up?
Lots of folks I know on FB have come home singing its praises.
Which they also did about Twilight.
Which possibly asks more questions than it answers.
All this has happened before and will happen again, so.
And I can't chew anyway I love Let Me Love You by Mario
All I can say is, smoke a fucking big reefer before you watch it and it will quite possibly feel like the greatest film ever made.
If you don't, it will all feel a bit meh.
live_jayeola
/me is jayeola
Saw the trailer in 3D when I went to see Chrimbo Carrol at the Imax a few weeks ago. Going!
I think he must be talking about Platoon, Deerhunter, etc.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
That all makes it sound even more Dances With Wolves / Last Samurai. It's actually put me off.
Pingu
Credo
its true... but tbh it doesnt ruin the film. Go and watch it after a few and without preconceptions. its not a full on action film - which is waht i normally go for - and tbh its not a classic. but visually its beautiful in parts and the storyline is OK. best way to sum it up is its a great christmas afternoon film or maybe boxing day. Not one you will go out of your way to watch again but one that you wont mind watching again
dances with smurfs though is an awesome parody
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
There is that Viet Nam film where Michael J Fox refuses to take part in a gang rape and is thusly the face of Good Soldiers in Viet Nam.
Or Valkyrie where that sciontologist nob head is presented as the Good Face of Nazi
New Age lar de dar crap - Strictly For Hippies.
The actual final battle scene - pretty cracking. Even if it is about as plausible as the Ewoks beating the Empire's forces.
The actual final battle scene - pretty cracking. Even if it is about as plausible as the Ewoks beating the Empire's forces.
revol68
what, fucking what?
hollywood blockbusters in which the bad guys are clearly meant to be the US military.
Like the Agents in the Matrix and the Company in Aliens then.
Reno
The In Kraut
I agree with revol in that it's quite amazing how resolutely anti-American this "most expensive blockbuster ever made" is and I'm surprised how more critics haven't picked up on this.
In any case, I saw this today with my 13 year old nephew. Two thirds in there was a glitch in the digital projection which took five minutes to fix, but the boy and me just tuned to each other going "isn't this great!" I've mostly given up on US blockbusters and find the likes of Terminator Salvation, Transformers and 2012 incomprehensible, but this married classic film making with technical innovation and it was tremendously fun and exciting.
What the film is ultimately about is it's meticulously worked out world, which is breathtaking in it's detail and imagination. As such it falls within a sub-genre of sciene fiction like Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama or Aldiss' Hothouse in immersing the viewer/reader in a perfectly worked out alien world. Neither of those stories had much plot, they were riveting because of the places they allowed you to explore and Avatar is in that same mode of sci-fi. The film does largely rely on Cameron stock characters, but I still found them much more engaging than what passes for characterisation in most current blockbusters. Zoe Sadana gives a great performance via this advanced form of motion capture as Neytiri and it's great to see Sigourney Weaver back in a Cameron film as the essence of (chain smoking) human decency and common sense.
The alien designs may have looked naff in photos, but within their context they work perfectly well, are utterly credible as living beings and are both graceful and wonderfully expressive.The scene where the aliens are finally attacked by the US army is genuinely heart wrenching.
It's also a credit to Cameron as a storyteller that neither me or the boy were ever bored during nearly three hours. It may be an old story, but at least it's well told. Apart from a few duff lines of Cameron's patented "salty" soldier talk the only thing I wasn't so keen on was Horner's self-cannibalising score. The slushy theme song made us rush for the exit sooner than I would have left otherwise. Still, it's a minor niggle. Anybody who enjoys a good Hollywood blockbuster and boycotts this simply to be to cool and contrary is a fool.
In any case, I saw this today with my 13 year old nephew. Two thirds in there was a glitch in the digital projection which took five minutes to fix, but the boy and me just tuned to each other going "isn't this great!" I've mostly given up on US blockbusters and find the likes of Terminator Salvation, Transformers and 2012 incomprehensible, but this married classic film making with technical innovation and it was tremendously fun and exciting.
What the film is ultimately about is it's meticulously worked out world, which is breathtaking in it's detail and imagination. As such it falls within a sub-genre of sciene fiction like Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama or Aldiss' Hothouse in immersing the viewer/reader in a perfectly worked out alien world. Neither of those stories had much plot, they were riveting because of the places they allowed you to explore and Avatar is in that same mode of sci-fi. The film does largely rely on Cameron stock characters, but I still found them much more engaging than what passes for characterisation in most current blockbusters. Zoe Sadana gives a great performance via this advanced form of motion capture as Neytiri and it's great to see Sigourney Weaver back in a Cameron film as the essence of (chain smoking) human decency and common sense.
The alien designs may have looked naff in photos, but within their context they work perfectly well, are utterly credible as living beings and are both graceful and wonderfully expressive.The scene where the aliens are finally attacked by the US army is genuinely heart wrenching.
It's also a credit to Cameron as a storyteller that neither me or the boy were ever bored during nearly three hours. It may be an old story, but at least it's well told. Apart from a few duff lines of Cameron's patented "salty" soldier talk the only thing I wasn't so keen on was Horner's self-cannibalising score. The slushy theme song made us rush for the exit sooner than I would have left otherwise. Still, it's a minor niggle. Anybody who enjoys a good Hollywood blockbuster and boycotts this simply to be to cool and contrary is a fool.
Hmmm, I felt it reflected a lot about personal identity. Particularly the sense in which, I think, we often feel very confused about who we are, and, as such, are confronted with questions about what is real, authentic and actual about us. I don't mean in some shallow conscious manner, but rather with respect to the way in which our beliefs often don't sit well together, the split between our intentions and actions, the fact that we have conflictual desires, motivations and aspirations, and that these failures in cohesion are fragmented and unacknowledged . Whilst I can admire the film for picking a side, I felt that, at one level, it hinged upon a fantasy that we can triumph over our guilt, that we can get rid of the problematic parts of ourselves that we might otherwise feel ashamed of. It then hinges on idealization and denigration. The film, in this way, couldn't feel anything other than a caricature of either side, such that rather than difference being something to struggle with, it becomes something we're intolerably anxious about and afraid of; the solution being that its split-off, projected and attacked. For me, the fact that we seem unable to acknowledge, tolerate and deal with these ambivalences is very concerning.
Anyhows, this was all a subtext and I'm only reflecting on that after the fact. My main impression was that, yeah, it was a good film. There was a lot to enjoy about it and it is worth just going with it for the ride.
Anyhows, this was all a subtext and I'm only reflecting on that after the fact. My main impression was that, yeah, it was a good film. There was a lot to enjoy about it and it is worth just going with it for the ride.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Wow you guys got a lot out of what was basically 6th form level politics and spirituality.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
hollywood blockbusters in which the bad guys are clearly meant to be the US military.
REALLY?! Holy fuck!!! I totally missed this! That means this is the most revolutionary film EVAH!
revol68
what, fucking what?
REALLY?! Holy fuck!!! I totally missed this! That means this is the most revolutionary film EVAH!
Yes that is exactly what I said.
Like I said a lot depends on what you bring to a film, you evidently bring fuck all and in the end this is your own loss.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Yuck, lets not move the subtext from one of real material conflict to some wanky examination of conflicts within our 'inner psyche'. Infact I thought Cameron made a good job of avoiding this by refusing any sort of middle ground and ambivalence but instead making it clear that one side are forces of nihilistic accumulation that's very existence can only be secured by militarist expansion and destruction of the other and on the other side (for all it's noble savage and new age hippy shit) there are a people who can only maintain their existence by destroying their enemy with no room for some sort of liberal synthesis or reconciliation even in some sort of balancing of conflicting tendencies way.
The central message is that we can only overcome our "guilt", actually I don't think guilt is at all useful or relevant, rather it is about self fufilment and escaping our stunted and meaningless existence (hence him leaving his crippled body behind) through a real and violent conflict in which we are forced to cut all material and ideological ties to our past is massively at odds with such an analysis.
Still I expect nothing more from a Star Wars fan boy
revol68
what, fucking what?
Yep!
I'd be tempted to say that how you view this film is a test of whether or not you have still managed to hold on to your soul in our oh so clever (read smug idiocy) and ironic world in which all sense of truth and justice is relativised into extinction. If you don't feel an almost child like sense of anger, empathy and revulsion at the attack on the Na'vi I think it's safe to say you are a lost cause who privileges their oh so knowing cynicist cool over anything else.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Are you deluded? The Agents in the Matrix are enforcers of the Matrix, a system that enslaves all of humanity, they are not representative of the US military and most certainly not equivalent to explicitness of the parallels in the Avatar.
In Aliens we are left in no doubt what abunch of shits the Company are but fundamentally the fight for survival is against the Aliens not them. It is more akin to traditional hollywood pseudo antiwar movies in which troops find themselves put in a shitty situation at the behest of corrupt policy makers but nonetheless must fight for their survival against the external other rather than turn their guns on their own military hierarchy in a fight to the death.
Thought you were a materialist?
This was one of the things I enjoyed most about it as well. You really get the sense that each animal forms part of a larger ecosystem, or had evolved from common ancestors. Multiple sets of eyes, bright plumage, those weird gill things instead of lungs, and the fact that every animal has that 'neural-symbiosis-cord-thing', reinforcing the idea that all the life on the planet is connected, not just the plant life as explicitly stated.
They took their time to work out what kind of animals occupied which niche, how they would look and act. One of my favourite scenes was when Sully spends his first night in the forest, where unseen liquid black panther things start chasing him.
Overall I loved it. I think I would need to see it again for a more objective criticism, not allowing the razzle and dazzle to overwhelm the bad points (simple characterisation, one dimensional villains, complete lack of subtlety, amongst others) as much as it did the first time.
revol68
what, fucking what?
and I thought you were better than such retarded literalism.
So when you say "soul," you actually mean.....?
revol68
what, fucking what?
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Saw this last night and absolutely adored it! 
Yes! This! Although... you make it sound as though our hero's human body was meant to be a metaphor for a crippled human society. Hadn't thought of it that way and I do hope it wasn't.revol68 said:
Similar threads
