Avatar (James Cameron) [SPOILERS]

[Reno]

The Na'vi weren't "noble savages." It turns out that anything that could be considered as superstition or religion (that means primitive) turns out to be hard scientific fact in Avatar, which makes the Na'vi highly civilised. They just don't have a machine based civilisation, they have one that uses plants and animals to the same degree of sophistication that humans use machines.

It really helps to look at things within context of a film rather than just imposing a first term cultural criticism onto a text and throwing around terms like "magical negro", a stereotype the film actually manages to subvert.

Mind, it's always handy to have a "black couple" sitting nearby to guide one as ones moral compass.

 

[Reno]

What was 'so refreshing' about it?

The intricate and detailed world it creates which looks and feels completely different from anything else that's out now. The fact that it is a milestone in film making technology.

 

[5t3IIa]

The Na'vi weren't "noble savages." It turns out that anything that could be considered as superstition or religion (that means primitive) turns out to be hard scientific fact in Avatar, which makes the Na'vi highly civilised. They just don't have a machine based civilisation, they have one that uses plants and animals to the same degree of sophistication that humans use machines.

It really helps to look at things within context of a film rather than just imposing a first term cultural criticism onto a text and throwing around terms like "magical negro", a stereotype the film actually manages to subvert.

Mind, it's always handy to have a "black couple" sitting nearby to guide one as ones moral compass.

I didnt' throw the term! But thanks, I learned something.

The intricate and detailed world it creates which looks and feels completely different from anything else that's out now. The fact that it is a milestone in film making technology.

Film making technology! Yes! Not plot.

 

[revol68]

What was 'so refreshing' about it?

To be a wanker and quote myself.

As for the hype, well actually the hype almost worked against it, there was a massive backlash in the two weeks running up to it's release and certainly me and my girlfriend went in expecting the worst, to be really pleasantly surprised by not only it's aesthetics but the not so "sub" political subtext that has a lot more balls than 99% of pseudo critical War movies.

Sure it has it's tripe Noble Savage, at one with nature cliches and predictably sticks to the standard "Hero" narrative and the inherent structural privileging that implies ie the "human" lead doesn't simply join the Na'vi but ends up leading them, but to focus on these obvious failings universal to almost every mainstream movie is to miss the many ways the film stands out, for example;

The typical role of the noble savage as providing another perspective on our societies, and in doing so acting to actually improve their functioning. Instead the role of the noble savage is total in this film, the lessons can't be simply be assimilated into our society by just taking a few platitudes from here or there and sticking them in a corporate mission statement or whatever, instead it requires a complete and violent break with our society, indeed the lead character gives up his crippled and alienated human body.

The film has the balls to totally pick a side, to reject any pathetic liberal handwringing, wavering or humanisation or justification for the individual motives of those on the companies side. Anyone used to American anti war movies knows that primarily they are about American tragedies, they we are meant to empathise primarily with the pain and anguish the war inflicts on the American pscyhe, with the hundreds and thousands of dead civilians and enemies a prop for indulging the self pity of the US.

Another thing in this film is the complete lack of 'civilians' as such, there are no good innocents who are caught up in a war between two sides, there are no good innocent peaceful Na'vi opposed to the violent, insurgent Na'vi.

Avatar is the closest Hollywood will ever let you get to cheerleading the US military getting it's fucking balls rolled and sure that doesn't make for perfect communist politics, after all I'm no big fan of third worldism, it certainly makes it more gutsy than 99% of films and pretty refreshing for a Hollywood block buster action sci fi.

 

[ChrisFilter]

Mind, it's always handy to have a "black couple" sitting nearby to guide one as ones moral compass.

Easy tiger, I loved the film. In fact, I was joining you in getting excited about if you look back. But I did think the pretty obviously black 'natives' was a little lazy.

And are you suggesting I fabricated the people around me in the cinema? That's a bit sad.

 

[revol68]

Easy tiger, I loved the film. But I did think the pretty obviously black natives was a little lazy.

And are you suggesting I fabricated the people around me in the cinema? That's a bit sad.

If the black couple were seeing it as a 'black natives' I reckon they should widen their grasp of history and cop onto the fact that if anything the Na'vi are closer to the Native American noble savage myth.

Fuck sure Chris Rock does a sketch about it.

"That ain't Pocahontas, that's Jennifer fucking Lopez!"

 

[Reno]

Film making technology! Yes! Not plot.

It's incredibly reductive to define the quality of a film entirely by "plot". I'd have to dismiss a lot of my favourite films if I judged them just by the quality of their plot. It's a uniquely Britsh view that films should be entirely judged by the quality of their writing, like books or the theatre, instead of looking at them as a medium that should be visually pleasurable and that often works best in its most intangible qualities.

My all time favourite film is Vertigo. Its plot makes next to no sense and yet it's one of the most profound cinematic experiences I can think of. Dario Argento's Suspira has next to no plot and yet it is a film whose world I like to visit again and again.

 

[ChrisFilter]

If the black couple were seeing it as a 'black natives' I reckon they should widen their grasp of history and cop onto the fact that if anything the Na'vi are closer to the Native American noble savage myth.

Fuck sure Chris Rock does a sketch about it.

"That ain't Pocahontas, that's Jennifer fucking Lopez!"

I'm not talking about their culture (which I agree, was very native American or Amerindian), I'm talking about the actors, the language and the accents. They're black, there's no two ways about it.

 

[Combustible]

The Na'vi weren't "noble savages." It turns out that anything that could be considered as superstition or religion (that means primitive) turns out to be hard scientific fact in Avatar, which makes the Na'vi highly civilised. They just don't have a machine based civilisation, they have one that uses plants and animals to the same degree of sophistication that humans use machines.

Noble Savages is perhaps the wrong term because as you say what appear to be rituals are in fact not. But by making the Na'vi an almost perfectly harmonious and non destructive race does feel a bit of a moral cop out especially as they never face any real dilemmas about it. This in comparison to the Fremen in Dune for example.

It's quite understandable why this would be done for a mainstream film however and as Revol68 says in many ways it was pretty uncompromising in a way you might not expect for a blockbuster.

 

[revol68]

I'm not talking about their culture (which I agree, was very native American or Amerindian), I'm talking about the actors, the language and the accents. They're black, there's no two ways about it.

There is some sort of universal black accent and language now is their?

I'd tell that black couple to be less self obsessed afro centric nobs.

 

[Gromit]

Tsu'tey & Neytiri are played by black actors.

Guy who plays Eytukan is Cherokee.

 

[Reno]

Tsu'tey & Neytiri are played by black actors.

Guy who plays Eytukan is Cherokee.

I only recently noticed that Moat, Neytiri's mother was played by the always excellent CCH Pounder. She's one of my favourite character actresses and probably most famous as Claudette Wyms in The Shield.

 

[laptop]

Tsu'tey... played by black actor...

And that was the character of whom I thought: "yep, he blaaack".

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Easy tiger, I loved the film. In fact, I was joining you in getting excited about if you look back. But I did think the pretty obviously black 'natives' was a little lazy.

And are you suggesting I fabricated the people around me in the cinema? That's a bit sad.

I didn't even think of them as black though. More as Native American or Asian indiginous tribes (Thailand etc)

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

The main woman reminded me of my wife when she was constantly telling him how stupid and clumsy he was.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

And that was the character of whom I thought: "yep, he blaaack".

He reminded me more of like Tibetan or Chinese youths...

 

[Badgers]

Booked up a bit at the IMAX!!!

 

[Ceej]

Saw this in 3D yesterday - clearly there is something to be said for being a fossil and not doing the gaming thing, as I thought this film was stunning - visually superb. Loved the gorgeous world Cameron created and although the story was nothing new (what is?) it was just brilliant - 10 yr old nephew was transfixed throughout, and he usually has the attention span of a flea.

 

[ChrisFilter]

There is some sort of universal black accent and language now is their?

I'd tell that black couple to be less self obsessed afro centric nobs.

And I'd respect their opinions and want to find out more about why it made them a bit uncomfortable. But then I'm not weirdly obsessed with the film, I just enjoyed for what it is

 

[Stigmata]

Guys they're not black, they're fucking blue. Was there something wrong with your 3D glasses or what

 

[audiotech]

Hey! Careful with comparing stuff to Aliens Just cuz it was Cameron doesn't mean he made anything like the same effort with plot and dialogue in this HIPPY NONSENSE.

I have the biggest urge to say something about the magical negro but tbh I'm too scared to.

You should be, because you know it to be a piss-poor comparison and clearly amateur trolling.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

There is an element of truth to it, it's sort of reverse racism in the film, or to be more exact, reverse society-ism. The idea that western societies are inherently more evil than any other when in truth they've just been doing what people have been doing for centuries, just been better at it at points. that only they can be in harmony with nature.

The navi tribes are never in conflict with each other, for instance, which is a classic failing of 'noble savage' misleadings about the Native Americans. They were at war with each other for thousands of years.

And just for instance, the native american way of life was actually quite destructive in terms of nature - this bloke who works with a lot of progressive type things said that quite a lot of species went extinct due to them, it wasn't this harmony with nature thing, that's just as condescending as the 'savage' thing, it's putting people on a pedestal, making them into something they aren't, and liking them because of that thing, rather than as people.

 

[DotCommunist]

There is an element of truth to it, it's sort of reverse racism in the film, or to be more exact, reverse society-ism. The idea that western societies are inherently more evil than any other when in truth they've just been doing what people have been doing for centuries, just been better at it at points. that only they can be in harmony with nature.

The navi tribes are never in conflict with each other, for instance, which is a classic failing of 'noble savage' misleadings about the Native Americans. They were at war with each other for thousands of years.

And just for instance, the native american way of life was actually quite destructive in terms of nature - this bloke who works with a lot of progressive type things said that quite a lot of species went extinct due to them, it wasn't this harmony with nature thing, that's just as condescending as the 'savage' thing, it's putting people on a pedestal, making them into something they aren't, and liking them because of that thing, rather than as people.

The sort of summer-wars and raids common to tribalist groupings though. Not proper 'kill all the men, rape the women and enslave the children' war. Almost ritualised AFAIK

 

[david dissadent]

Great piece of cinema. Sat back and had a proper sci fi comic book block buster. Personaly I think there is a strong hint of Americas Iraq and Afghanistan catastrophy in the film, but Im sure that is so obvious most people picked up on it. Parts of the films back story could practicly be lifted from any number of confrontations in places like the Amazon, Papua New Guinea or Niger Delta.

Alot of big budget visual fests have flopped over the years, I think perhaps one of the reasons that Avatar is not flopping is that it is hitting a target for a fantasy film, to offer a reflection of our current societies. The journey of the film allows US and UK audiances the opertunity of going from being crippled by war to finding redemtion in fighting against a millitirarised resource grab. It allows us to attack our own recent history. Interesting that this film is succeeding at the box office when so many films about Iraq or the war on terror have failed.

Cameron did let me down though on the tactics at the battle at the end. You could see it was planned by a corperal.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

The sort of summer-wars and raids common to tribalist groupings though. Not proper 'kill all the men, rape the women and enslave the children' war. Almost ritualised AFAIK

Hmm. I suspect even that varies according to the tribe.

I mean look at what the Middle east used to be like with the all the different tribes. If you want a good satire of that, Asterix and the Black Gold is proper top notch.

 

[Dandred]

They are obviously meant to represent a tribe/tribes from the amazon.

The life force that the film tries to protect is the trees there, are people so short sighted?

Cities of gold........ The gold is unobtainium because it means nothing compared to the life that is so important.


17 pages and still talking about racism.

 

[Dandred]

dp

 

[Beanburger]

Mind, it's always handy to have a "black couple" sitting nearby to guide one as ones moral compass.

True, that is. I've found black couples are always spot on the fucking nail when it comes to issues of race. Same as I can always trust white couples to give me moral guidance on English nationalist issues.

 

[Orang Utan]

the military bad guy looks like victor meldrew's wife

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Cameron did let me down though on the tactics at the battle at the end. You could see it was planned by a corperal.