Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[panpete]

I thought i would share this. Man gets in support group after two years, with ESA50 and no medical assessment, as he does not want to be assessed face-to-face.
http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2013/...nal-atosdwp-voyage-a-must-read-thanks-rodney/

 

[audiotech]

The comment of being "part of a target led organised benefit denial factory" is not that hard to fathom when you've been through their "revolving door" a few times.

 

[panpete]

I wish I'd seen that before I got my forms, but, alas, nowt I can do now.

 

[panpete]

I can only echo that you need to take a step back from this pete, you will possibly be waiting some time before you are called for assesment, you need to make notes of things that occur to you but there is nothing you can do to help the process now. If you or I do end up with basic ESA meanstested, you will become eligble for means tested benefits, and will have to survive on the same as a lot off other people who for whatever reason don't have an occupational pension will. it is worrying but you won't be left without a home, its an odd little quirk o the system that a pension isn't counted as income, its the same quirk that used to allow police officers retire from the police, get jobs as planning enforement officers or similar and get salary plus pension.

Its possible that my unwillingness to face up to things has meant I am out of time for getting it reviewed/appealed, (I am finding out about that now), i know that I was medically retired because it wasn't anticipated I would be fit to work again.

Its been interesting that a close friend who I supported through appeal has looked at me very differently this week since it became apparent that I would receive more benefit than him. Strange the things you learn about friends.

I also think that the call I had (which I now know to have been from the decision maker) seemed quite decided before they spoke to me that I would get WRAG, and I think is calculated to reduce my benefit(and so the governments benefit bill), I had thought it was because of my existing MH problems and the backlash there had been with people like me killing themselves, but it has little or nothing to do with the likelhood of my being fit to return to work. I didn't pursue it at the time, I was so relieved to get ESA at all, at a difficult time in my life, my very dear friend lost her fight with breast cancer at the age of 49 around that time, I was just grateful to be alive, it may mean I have fucked my benefits, but I am still here, still breathing.

Hi Celt,

I did not know that pension would not be counted as income.
That is good news.
Turn2us and benefitsandwork and moneysavingexpert got it wrong when they said my pension would wipe out any means tested benefits.

You know what, at the moment I feel past worrying, and am starting to try to get 'ok' with the idea of no ESA, because if I can do that, then I am not at the mercy of the crooks that award benefits.
I can say "stuff you", I'll make my own money.

I had a bit of a revelation today. For some reason I have held this false belief that I am of lower worth, and therefore translated that as unable to make my own money, because I do not believe I have anything worth selling, as in talents etc etc
This belief is a false old one which came from my parents who are merely grown wounded children themselves.

I'm not saying I am fit for a workplace environment, because I just do not belong in that space, I am thinking out of the box and looking at what I have to offer outside of the workplace, so it can be me who goes along to the benefits people and say "I no longer need your money, I've got my own"

I can see why you were just grateful to get ESA at the time.
So, even if we both get WRAG, if our pensions are not counted as an income, then that takes a bit of pressure off to get in the support group, even though we both feel we deserve to be in that group.

 

[panpete]

panpete - you've sent the form off, and, frankly, there isn't anything you can do except wait.

So I suggest this:

• keep a notepad somewhere into which you can write things you've remembered that you think might be relevant: write them in, and then mentally unload them, in the knowledge that you've got a note in case you need to remember it later;
• use this as an exercise in being able to "let go" of things - do some learning around "radical acceptance", or explore using mindfulness techniques as ways of stopping the ruminating/going around in circles process.

Hi, yes, see my post above where I feel past worrying, it's not worth giving myself a breakdown.

 

[existentialist]

Hi, yes, see my post above where I feel past worrying, it's not worth giving myself a breakdown.

Good stuff.

This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.

I guess the trick is not to let them win...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Good stuff.

This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.

I guess the trick is not to let them win...

It's unsurprising that the system "seems" to do so, given that one of the aims was to pretty much cut a swathe through mental health claims on the grounds that rather than people having mental health issues, they were actually very good actors, pretending to have mental health issues in order to defraud the government.

 

[existentialist]

It's unsurprising that the system "seems" to do so, given that one of the aims was to pretty much cut a swathe through mental health claims on the grounds that rather than people having mental health issues, they were actually very good actors, pretending to have mental health issues in order to defraud the government.

Yes, I was being a little (unnecessarily) charitable, there.

Actually, what boggles my mind is that the endless refining of the approach seems so transparently obviously designed to disadvantage, trap, and trip up claimants that it isn't common knowledge.

If you had asked me ten years ago how far a government could get away with this kind of cynical manipulation, and how far a population would be prepared to go in ignoring the government's behaviour, even colluding with it, I would not have believed that what is happening today could have happened. Perhaps that makes me naïve, but I'd have preferred "optimistic".

As it is, I am struggling with who to hate the most - a government that can so nakedly recruit the nastiest impulses of us all to pursue a kind of fat cats' war on the poor, or a population who seem not just able, but positively willing, to be led by the nose. It's pretty sickening.

 

[panpete]

Edit: Well eventually had to ring the DWP again today and the person who answered my query has confirmed that I do NOT have to fill in the questionnaire that I received at the beginning of this month. Thanks Atos Healthcare, the DWP and whoever else was responsible for putting me through another period of hell.

Exhausted, over and out.

Phew, what a relief.

In answer to your question, yes, they do, do it delibetately.
They are hoping that people will say "Ah fuck, I'm just gonna live without benefits"

Glad that you do not have to fill out another form though.

 

[audiotech]

Posted on facebook and to be continued:

The ESA50 how important is it?

Well I would say its the most important information that you can give, next to the medical, if not more so. What you put on your ESA50 will be used as evidence sometimes against you, in a tribunal, and by the DWP when reaching its decision. People fill in their forms without knowing how it's all worked out according to complex rules....It's how the claimant fills in the form which can make all the difference as to whether they will get support or not, some people will just give up at this first hurdle, others indicate they have no problem because they are misled by the questions; Claims are often disallowed because a Decision Makers will use the esa form against the claimant, ie if the claimant have told them they have no limitation in their own self assessment then quite often claimants with profound limitations are being found to have no limitation at all - The assessment process is not fit for purpose, and claimants simply do not realise how the questions in the form relate to the legal criteria which determines whether people get support. So before you fill in the form, read as much as you can, ie on here, or other sites or better still get help from an organisation specialising in welfare benefits. Ensure you "understand" the questions asked.

Assessment starts on the day of your appointment with the Health Care Professional reading the form you completed when you applied for ESA. Remember that EVERY single question you are asked is designed to justify ending your claim for ESA and passing you as “fit for work”. This a Contractual obligation between ATOS and DWP. The "assessment", is a chance for the DWP to take away your financial support. Be prepared and remember this at ALL times when dealing with anything to do with ESA.

Follow the link above for more.

 

[panpete]

Good stuff.

This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.

I guess the trick is not to let them win...

The trick for me is not to be so reliant on benefits.
Having grown up with bullies, I know a favourite strategy of bully is to have you reliant on them, and as you described above, they ARE bullys, using typical bully tactics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, I was being a little (unnecessarily) charitable, there.

Actually, what boggles my mind is that the endless refining of the approach seems so transparently obviously designed to disadvantage, trap, and trip up claimants that it isn't common knowledge.

People don't know, and don't believe, because they don't want to. The majority of people, living under a state, want to believe that the state has its best intentions toward them, and if the state conveniently facilitates that belief by initiating a rhetorical crusade against a minority, then how cool is that for the mass who don't want to face up to the cognitive dissonance inherent to what the state is actually doing?

If you had asked me ten years ago how far a government could get away with this kind of cynical manipulation, and how far a population would be prepared to go in ignoring the government's behaviour, even colluding with it, I would not have believed that what is happening today could have happened. Perhaps that makes me naïve, but I'd have preferred "optimistic".

I would've, but only because I'd already experienced the Benefits Integrity Project by then, and was aware of where the legislators wanted to go with their ideas because I made sure to read the social policy coming out of the likes of DEMOS.

As it is, I am struggling with who to hate the most - a government that can so nakedly recruit the nastiest impulses of us all to pursue a kind of fat cats' war on the poor, or a population who seem not just able, but positively willing, to be led by the nose. It's pretty sickening.

The way I see it, their different manifestations of the same over-arching problem - neoliberalism - so they're all equally deserving of a sharpened entrenching tool to the back of the neck.

 

[audiotech]

DWP allowed to appeal:

It may have taken almost a month and a half, but judges have agreed to let the Department for Work and Pensions appeal against the judgement that the work capability assessment discriminates against people with mental health problems.

source.

This, despite being denied permission to appeal on the first attempt, according to the Mental Health Resistance Network.

 

[audiotech]

To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:

Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.

 

[panpete]

To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:

Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.

Which is means tested so you most probs wont get as much, (if any) depending on income.

 

[Celt]

To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:

Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.

OK, if that is the case in all claims that does mean my occupational pension would be counted as income.

But I believe from the Benefits Advice that if you make it to support group and stay in that catagory your claim stays the same, non means tested. I don't now know if that is so or not.

I have decided that whichever of these is so, their medical evidence and decision document is so inaccurate I feel I am justified to be making an out of time review/appeal.

The call I had, which I now know to have been from the "decision maker", told me my money would stay the same and that despite my requesting that I be given time to think about the questions she was asking as I was very anxious I was pressed to answer her then, when she said I had got ESA I was so relieved, if I was told about the difference WRAG or support group made I did not take in.

I only got their written decision after I rang them some time after the decision (maybe 3 week or a month later)


I did not read their decision properly, but having done so it contained massive inaccuracies, which they have made their decision on.

Panpete, you asked me about your pension and the truth is - I don't know, my pension was from local government, it is much less than yours, I don't know if it should have been considered for Inacapacity beneit.

 

[Celt]

Hi Celt,

I did not know that pension would not be counted as income.
That is good news.
Turn2us and benefitsandwork and moneysavingexpert got it wrong when they said my pension would wipe out any means tested benefits.

snip

I think you need to check this with someone, my only knowledge is regarding my pension which is much less than the benefit amount and I understand I would get my pension with a top up to the benefit amount. It would also mean I was eligble to means tested beneits - council tax beneit amd housing benefit which would pay mortgage interest.

I can't be 100 per cent sure of this. but its what I understand.

Sorry folks I am more than exhausted, I had a panic attack about this this morning, its funny how this shit makes me appreciate my friends even more, my friend S has given me lots of cups of tea, followed by food and some escapist trash telly, I may be being fucked royally by the benefits people but I am cared for (emotionally) by my friends - and his dog, who has demanded I stroke him lots - quite therapeutic.

we may be lying in the gutter but some of us are staring at the stars (oscar wilde)

 

[panpete]

Good stuff.

This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.

I guess the trick is not to let them win...

The whole WCA was never about cutting money, and niether was bedroom tax, and other unfair levies on the poor.
It is, and was, all about reducing quality of life and causing as much fear as possible.

Atos and the DWP are unfair, and it's almost a lottery.
I have a new friend who is terminally ill, and has been declared fit for work, so has had to appeal and go through loads of stress.

There's loads I have forgot to put on the form, but in the end my CBT tools came into play and I had to let it go.

Que sera

 

[panpete]

I think you need to check this with someone, my only knowledge is regarding my pension which is much less than the benefit amount and I understand I would get my pension with a top up to the benefit amount. It would also mean I was eligble to means tested beneits - council tax beneit amd housing benefit which would pay mortgage interest.

I can't be 100 per cent sure of this. but its what I understand.

Sorry folks I am more than exhausted, I had a panic attack about this this morning, its funny how this shit makes me appreciate my friends even more, my friend S has given me lots of cups of tea, followed by food and some escapist trash telly, I may be being fucked royally by the benefits people but I am cared for (emotionally) by my friends - and his dog, who has demanded I stroke him lots - quite therapeutic.

we may be lying in the gutter but some of us are staring at the stars (oscar wilde)

Hi Celt

Sorry you had a panic attack this morning.
My CBT is helping me as I had a bit of a crisis on Monday.
Google "worry tree". i missed out loads on my claim, but there's nowt I can no now, so, with it being in the lap of the gods, I just sit back and wait.

Re: pensions. In the WRAG they would deduce the whole pension amount, but in the suport group, they either deduct the difference or just leave it.

 

[tufty79]

.
My CBT is helping me...... there's nowt I can no now, so, with it being in the lap of the gods, I just sit back and wait.

you don't know how pleased i am to see you type that, pete. keep using your toolkit - sounds like you've given it a good spray of wd40 and are putting it to good use.

good luck with everything. and same to celt x

 

[tufty79]

we may be lying in the gutter but some of us are staring at the stars (oscar wilde)

this.

 

[existentialist]

The whole WCA was never about cutting money, and niether was bedroom tax, and other unfair levies on the poor.
It is, and was, all about reducing quality of life and causing as much fear as possible.

Atos and the DWP are unfair, and it's almost a lottery.
I have a new friend who is terminally ill, and has been declared fit for work, so has had to appeal and go through loads of stress.

There's loads I have forgot to put on the form, but in the end my CBT tools came into play and I had to let it go.

Que sera

It's almost a lottery.

With the one major distinction that, in a lottery, someone playing the game wins. That is not the intention with the DWP's strategy.

Sooner or later, some buildings are going to end up being burned down - it's pretty obvious that they're not in it for the popularity!

 

[flipflop29]

Hi,

I'm new here - I signed up partly to post about a petition that's trying to get the appalling WCA stopped (http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ng-sick-disabled-people.312405/#post-12369651) and I've been starting to read some of the posts on this thread.

However bad I know the WCA is, having been through it myself, seen friends go through it, and having read so many awful reports of people's experiences since starting trying to promote the petition, I'm still never prepared for how horrified I feel reading more. I'm feeling so sorry for everyone on here that's been chewed up and spat out by this vicious system, and because it's June and my own ESA (support group - I had to get a reconsideration from WRAG) is due to be reviewed at the end of July, I'm finding myself hyperventilating and anxious at the thought of going through it all again. I lost half a stone last time (dangerous, because I have gut problems and am already underweight), and I didn't even end up having to go through full appeal.

It's one of the most obviously failed policies I can think of - I almost can't believe it can carry on much longer in its current form, but both the government and the opposition still seem to be in denial as to how fundamentally flawed it is

 

[geminisnake]

To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:

Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.

I still don't understand how I was put on this when I've not contributed for the last 10 yrs. I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!

 

[equationgirl]

welcome flipflop29 hope you find help and advice here

 

[flipflop29]

Thanks equationgirl - I literally flipflop (!) between thinking I know how not to fall into the traps this time and that also I've got a medical report and supporting letter from a consultant that I couldn't get in time last time and then panicking that they won't pay attention to any of it and they'll just put me on whatever the feel like putting me on. I guess everyone feels like that though.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I still don't understand how I was put on this when I've not contributed for the last 10 yrs. I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!

I think and don't take this as gospel, but I'm on contributions ESA for a year despite not having worked since 2004 because, prior to ESA coming in, I was on contributions related Incapacity. And, apparently, everyone who was on contribution related Incap before getting migrated to ESA enjoys a year of what's known as income protection, whereby you get a year on the contributions rate of ESA. I hope that makes sense coz reading it back, it look like gibberish. I do know what I mean though, I'll try to explain it better if that's not comprehensible enough.

 

[audiotech]

Please read and participate if you can and if you feel it relevant to your circumstances.

Also this: Fourth independent review of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA).



https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...-review-of-the-work-capability-assessment-wca

 

[audiotech]

OK, if that is the case in all claims that does mean my occupational pension would be counted as income.

But I believe from the Benefits Advice that if you make it to support group and stay in that catagory your claim stays the same, non means tested. I don't now know if that is so or not.

The former? I can't answer, simply because I don't know, not having an occupational pension.

The latter? This is the case up to this point in time.

 

[yardbird]

Is an occupational pension income?
Err.. Yes.