Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old
- Thread starter Dimitris
- Start date
dennisr
the acceptable face
this movement has to develop beyond protests and firebombs though.
I'm thinking what is needed now? (folk in greece would be better informed than me but...) limited general strikes are no longer enough the left has to get its divided arse together united around a simple common demand ("Down with the government, down the Troika" would be a useful start - everyone seems to agree?), and general demands now have to be urgently translated into concrete proposals for action. keep momentum by key and constant ongoing public protest - permanent occupation of a key spot or spots and/or developing occupations of the likes of the hospital already occupied? - focus points that can be used to help broaden the movement - call on occupations of the schools and colleges - extent the strike lengths
the mood is there - the situation is critical. it would be a big mistake of the left if puts all its hopes into the present mass mobilization, hoping that alone would cause the fall of the government.
Was the general strike and demo turnout higher or down on previous? i have been getting contradictory views
I'm thinking what is needed now? (folk in greece would be better informed than me but...) limited general strikes are no longer enough the left has to get its divided arse together united around a simple common demand ("Down with the government, down the Troika" would be a useful start - everyone seems to agree?), and general demands now have to be urgently translated into concrete proposals for action. keep momentum by key and constant ongoing public protest - permanent occupation of a key spot or spots and/or developing occupations of the likes of the hospital already occupied? - focus points that can be used to help broaden the movement - call on occupations of the schools and colleges - extent the strike lengths
the mood is there - the situation is critical. it would be a big mistake of the left if puts all its hopes into the present mass mobilization, hoping that alone would cause the fall of the government.
Was the general strike and demo turnout higher or down on previous? i have been getting contradictory views
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I know it goes against the narrative of many of the left who post on this forum but surely any realistic opposition to what is happening in Greece has to take place at least partly at state level? Without guarantees of food and energy to the Greek people over the next couple of years all opposition is symbolic and doomed to defeat - and those guarantees seem to me to be only available at at a state to state level.
The job at ground level is to render the Troika's stooge govt of Papademos and Co. irrelevant by making it clear that it no longer governs (btw isn't it amusing to hear the unelected Papademos condemning the demonstrators as "undemocratic"?). But Greece doesn't have real resource independence and it can't break free of the Troika's clammy grip without foreign support. And that means state level action. That's how it seems to me.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Good morning.
First of all. A video that the media will not show you :
What you see there is police on motorcycles (DIAS force) storming in the crowd. You will also see that the street (Mitropoleos str) is full of people and that it is nighttime.... when the most corporate media were saying that there was no people on the streets.
The police knowing that the most cameras and live streams would be showing the parliament square, were actively trying during the whole evening and night to prevent loads of people from taking over the square. Therefore for everyone watching the news it seemed that there was not a lot of people in yesterday's demo. The reality of course is very different. ALL THE STREETS around the square, ALL THE CITY CENTER OF ATHENS was completely packed with people. There were so many people that it was impossible to move, it is not possible to estimate how many there were on the streets of Athens but even figures up to 1000000 (1 million) people can be justified, because of the density of the crowd on all the length of the central streets of Athens. This is also the reason that when the arsons started at various buildings in the center (more than 40 buildings got burned) it was very difficult for the fire brigade to approach those buildings because of the mass of people that were still on the streets.
Police did not attack only in the parliament square. On the nearby roads, like Ermou street (the street with the most people as it is located exactly opposite the square) police attacked with chemicals creating chaos, as the demonstrators were trying to leave but were trapped because there was nowhere to go really. On occasions riot police was picking up stones and were returning them back to the demonstrators, causing a number of injuries. This happened more often later on, because they run out of chemicals.
The whole feeling yesterday reminded me of December 2008. People of all ages on the streets, a big number of them confronting the police. You could see even middle aged men to pick up stones and throw them against the police. A lot equipped with Maalox and other anti acidic compounds who were spraying demonstrators on the face when chemicals were thrown so the people would not suffer. People cheering and clapping when petrol bombs were thrown against the police, there was even an incident of a black block fully equipped with flags helmets and petrol bombs passing through the crowd chanting going towards the parliament square in order to join the riots and the demonstrators around were clapping rhythmically and cheering as they were leaving them to pass through. It was also encouraging to watch people of all ages trying to keep the demonstrators calm when chemicals were thrown, this helped to prevent a number of panic situations that would turn even worse as people would step on each other. It clearly seemed that the most who turned up yesterday were there determined to stay on the streets no matter what was happening around them. This was more evident when you could see the demonstrators forming blocks again after receiving attacks by the police and were retaking the space they had emptied while defending the attack.
About the arsons, I have no clue how the most of them started. They were scattered on various areas on the center of Athens but seemed rather coordinated as they appeared simultaneously. Some big neoclassical buildings got burned, also banks, jewelry shops and a couple of cinemas. A lot of looting took place as well (this also reminded me of December 2008) as shops were completely destroyed and people looted them. At some buildings of multi national companies I did see for the first time private security to protect those buildings from demonstrators, this had never happened before.
As all these were happening outside, inside the parliament they were discussing of the new agreement with the Troika and the new austerity measures, although officially the big packet of the austerity measures will be voted in 15 days time. Yesterday the PSI agreement got voted and some measures, like the changes on the wages on the private sector, with a 22% decrease of the minimum wage, and a 35% decrease of the minimum wage of the young workers.
While the discussion was taking place in the parliament, some MPs were spending their time in the resting lounge of the parliament watching basketball and football games, as you can see on the following photo ...
Finally the agreement was voted with 199 YES. The coalition government has much more than 200 members in the parliament, 45 MPs of the government disagreed and voted NO so today they will all be deleted by their parties and will become independent MPs. Also the government will be reformed today as some ministers also resigned, it is possible that more technocrats rather than politicians will take place in the government formation after this development.
75 people were detained yesterday and 67 arrested, today we will see how many of them will finally face charges.
Some videos from yesterday :
Also loads of photos here http://www.babylonia.gr/news/topika...is-katastoli/syntagma-sygkoryseis-foto-2.html
The site babylonia is experiencing heavy traffic so you may need to retry in order to open it.
Also photos here : http://dimostheniszem.blogspot.com/2012/02/12-2012.html
First of all. A video that the media will not show you :
What you see there is police on motorcycles (DIAS force) storming in the crowd. You will also see that the street (Mitropoleos str) is full of people and that it is nighttime.... when the most corporate media were saying that there was no people on the streets.
The police knowing that the most cameras and live streams would be showing the parliament square, were actively trying during the whole evening and night to prevent loads of people from taking over the square. Therefore for everyone watching the news it seemed that there was not a lot of people in yesterday's demo. The reality of course is very different. ALL THE STREETS around the square, ALL THE CITY CENTER OF ATHENS was completely packed with people. There were so many people that it was impossible to move, it is not possible to estimate how many there were on the streets of Athens but even figures up to 1000000 (1 million) people can be justified, because of the density of the crowd on all the length of the central streets of Athens. This is also the reason that when the arsons started at various buildings in the center (more than 40 buildings got burned) it was very difficult for the fire brigade to approach those buildings because of the mass of people that were still on the streets.
Police did not attack only in the parliament square. On the nearby roads, like Ermou street (the street with the most people as it is located exactly opposite the square) police attacked with chemicals creating chaos, as the demonstrators were trying to leave but were trapped because there was nowhere to go really. On occasions riot police was picking up stones and were returning them back to the demonstrators, causing a number of injuries. This happened more often later on, because they run out of chemicals.
The whole feeling yesterday reminded me of December 2008. People of all ages on the streets, a big number of them confronting the police. You could see even middle aged men to pick up stones and throw them against the police. A lot equipped with Maalox and other anti acidic compounds who were spraying demonstrators on the face when chemicals were thrown so the people would not suffer. People cheering and clapping when petrol bombs were thrown against the police, there was even an incident of a black block fully equipped with flags helmets and petrol bombs passing through the crowd chanting going towards the parliament square in order to join the riots and the demonstrators around were clapping rhythmically and cheering as they were leaving them to pass through. It was also encouraging to watch people of all ages trying to keep the demonstrators calm when chemicals were thrown, this helped to prevent a number of panic situations that would turn even worse as people would step on each other. It clearly seemed that the most who turned up yesterday were there determined to stay on the streets no matter what was happening around them. This was more evident when you could see the demonstrators forming blocks again after receiving attacks by the police and were retaking the space they had emptied while defending the attack.
About the arsons, I have no clue how the most of them started. They were scattered on various areas on the center of Athens but seemed rather coordinated as they appeared simultaneously. Some big neoclassical buildings got burned, also banks, jewelry shops and a couple of cinemas. A lot of looting took place as well (this also reminded me of December 2008) as shops were completely destroyed and people looted them. At some buildings of multi national companies I did see for the first time private security to protect those buildings from demonstrators, this had never happened before.
As all these were happening outside, inside the parliament they were discussing of the new agreement with the Troika and the new austerity measures, although officially the big packet of the austerity measures will be voted in 15 days time. Yesterday the PSI agreement got voted and some measures, like the changes on the wages on the private sector, with a 22% decrease of the minimum wage, and a 35% decrease of the minimum wage of the young workers.
While the discussion was taking place in the parliament, some MPs were spending their time in the resting lounge of the parliament watching basketball and football games, as you can see on the following photo ...
Finally the agreement was voted with 199 YES. The coalition government has much more than 200 members in the parliament, 45 MPs of the government disagreed and voted NO so today they will all be deleted by their parties and will become independent MPs. Also the government will be reformed today as some ministers also resigned, it is possible that more technocrats rather than politicians will take place in the government formation after this development.
75 people were detained yesterday and 67 arrested, today we will see how many of them will finally face charges.
Some videos from yesterday :
Also loads of photos here http://www.babylonia.gr/news/topika...is-katastoli/syntagma-sygkoryseis-foto-2.html
The site babylonia is experiencing heavy traffic so you may need to retry in order to open it.
Also photos here : http://dimostheniszem.blogspot.com/2012/02/12-2012.html
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Your mask is slipping a bit....
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
cheers for the updates Dimitris - stay safe and solidarity to the greek people.
The media coverage over here is interesting in that the rioting is not being dismissed as the ususal 'violent minority bent on causing trouble' but as a direct result of the people being angry about what is being done to them.
The media coverage over here is interesting in that the rioting is not being dismissed as the ususal 'violent minority bent on causing trouble' but as a direct result of the people being angry about what is being done to them.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Imagine - people being angry about having their lives destroyed because foreign banks are running their country. They clearly should grow up and starve in silence for the good of the IMF, the Bundesbank and the Bond markets.
Tosser.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
thanks for updates Dimitris
believe what shit you like about the fiscal stuff but don't go attacking this thread
if you notice, this thread started in 2008 and was about the murder of a 16 year old, get it right.
believe what shit you like about the fiscal stuff but don't go attacking this thread
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Red Faction
Allez Les Rouges
What are they protesting about?
Their dilemma is essentially- die or be killed.
Why on earth people are out on the streets campaigning for either is beyond me.
If they accept the cuts- they are fucked.
If they reject the cuts- they will be dropped by the euro- and equally fucked.
In September he Greek PM Papandereou dropped a bombshell during negotiations- Greece might cede from the Euro.
Since then Europe has been making contingency plans for this.
If Greece succeed in making their cuts- minimum wage will be far below a decent living wage.
If Greece fails in making these cuts- default would mean inability to pay any public sector staff anything.
Hyperinflation. Any money they do have becoming worthless.
I can't see how burning all the building in Athens will improve their lot one way or the other.
Amazing photo, should be circulated
http://twitter.com/#!/vickykalantzi/status/168811954943692800/photo/1
dennisr
the acceptable face
"About the arsons, I have no clue how the most of them started."
I heard there was more evidence of state 'agent provocateurs' as well. Saw some pics - just trying to find links now
(not that simple anger, some foolish tactical ideas among a few and desperation leading to understandable need requires that much in the way of provocation)
I heard there was more evidence of state 'agent provocateurs' as well. Saw some pics - just trying to find links now
(not that simple anger, some foolish tactical ideas among a few and desperation leading to understandable need requires that much in the way of provocation)
For fuck's sake...
fuck seals
Well-Known Member
i don't know about the above tbh.
i flew out here on friday evening for a meeting in Athens this morning, and i havent seen a dam thing. and _certainly_ not a million people on the streets. just saying, like.
eta - i'm on Alexandras Avenue, 11521 - not exactly downtown, but not exactly far away either.
JHE
.
Anarcho-Wotsits are irrelevant. If you think the strikes and protests (including violent ones) are just some little bunch of Anarcho-Wotsits, you're a fool.
Presumably he thinks the millions who've come out in protest against austerity measures all across Europe are raving anarchists just itching for an excuse to have some 'fun' with tear gas and police batons. One wonders where this army of anarchists goes when they're not being wheeled out as a handy bogeyman by every right-wing idiot in sight...
'The roll call of burned-out buildings includes the Attikon cinema, a historic Athens landmark built in 1870 (pictured here ablaze last night).
I'm not there obviously but why burn down this cinema, its madness, its not going to be rebuilt, one wonders also how the police allowed it all to happen...
I'm not there obviously but why burn down this cinema, its madness, its not going to be rebuilt, one wonders also how the police allowed it all to happen...
'our correspondent in Athens, says that parts of Athens' historic centre now lies in tatters. There are burned out shells of buildings, including some of the capital's fabulous 19th century edifices. Shops have been looted and smashed, and cafes are still smouldering this morning.'
and this, destroying your own city, which now won't get rebuilt..
and this, destroying your own city, which now won't get rebuilt..
papageorgiou12
New Member
Some pictures from Athens that "fuck seals" did NOT see from the comfort of his hotel room:
Tens of thousands of demonstrators under the baners of PAME, the All-Workers' Militant Front, who were prevented from reaching Syntagma Square, outside the Greek parliament, due to the criminal cat-and-mouse games of the state agencies and agents provocateurs.
Tens of thousands of demonstrators under the baners of PAME, the All-Workers' Militant Front, who were prevented from reaching Syntagma Square, outside the Greek parliament, due to the criminal cat-and-mouse games of the state agencies and agents provocateurs.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Yes, well we've seen from the drone thread that you think murdering children is acceptable to we shouldn't be surprised.
And with all due respect, I'm not going to give the arguments of someone who thinks murdering civilians in the middle east is a sensible way of combating terrorism much credence.
You fucking idiot.
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
for what it's worth (little) Vice are banging on about their bing a clear split between 'violent anarchists' and a 'violent other'
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/athe...erity-euro-greece-hooligans-anarchism-looting
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/athe...erity-euro-greece-hooligans-anarchism-looting
dennisr
the acceptable face
Maybe - if you concentrated on providing an alternative beyond just calling for "strikes and demonstrations" the impressive turnout that the likes of the KKE and all the other lefts forces/trade unions have brought out onto the streets - you could more effectively cut across those state agencies and agent provocateurs?
This government is hanging by a thread - what seems to be keeping it there at all simply the failure of the left to put forward a programme that works towards actually assisting those people from taking power into their own hands. Why don't the KKE and the rest of the left put forward a joint platform - there is the very potential for a left majority at the next election if only they provide a genuine alternative. Why are you lot still refusing to put forward a socialist programme? Fight for a government of the working people - repudiate the debt, take the economy into democratic public ownership, under workers’ democratic control and management. Why are you not taking advantage of this opportunity?
Riklet
procrastinación
Consider the KKE have previously blocked off and protected the parliament, and has its own interests in achieving electoral success out of this crisis rather than actually creating an alternative for and by the "all-workers", should probs take papa G's views with a pinch of salt.
They're not taking advantage of collective interests because they only want their little group of minions in power, anything else is a failure of the revolutionary vanguard, obviously
Although also, papa G is there and I am not, n the pics etc are good viewing so thanks...
They're not taking advantage of collective interests because they only want their little group of minions in power, anything else is a failure of the revolutionary vanguard, obviously
Although also, papa G is there and I am not, n the pics etc are good viewing so thanks...
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Their leaders are traitors?
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Personally I am not going to get in to a conversation of what KKE does or does not do, because this thread will be derailed again by Papageorgiou (who as it seems he has tagged this thread and replies only if there are any posts here). KKE is a parliamentary party, it is their decision of what to do, what I understand is that the working class will not wait for KKE to make their move though. It seems to me the way things are going that KKE will be the working class party that does not really represent the working class. YES if they joined forces with other left movements and parties now they could even be the next government in the next elections, but I really do not think that KKE wants to be in that position.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I really want to thank you that you take part in this thread and contribute in this discussion. It is crucial that you spread the info that are presented and that will be presented here to wherever you can, because we all need alternative information of what is happening in Greece and not just state media propaganda.
In a lot of cities around Europe but also elsewhere, solidarity demos and gatherings have been taking place. I believe that it is essential that these solidarity gatherings should continue and get more publicity, because when you stand in solidarity with the greek working class, you actually demonstrate for your rights as well. Proletarians have no country, the bosses and the capitalists together with the state have started a war against the working class, not only in Greece but in whole Europe, basically in the whole capitalist world. What I also believe, is that sooner or later, Greece will become the next Egypt, the first in the EU and the Eurozone, and in this uprising the working class of whole Europe should join.
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL
SMASH THE STATE
SMASH CAPITALISM.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I really want to thank you that you take part in this thread and contribute in this discussion. It is crucial that you spread the info that are presented and that will be presented here to wherever you can, because we all need alternative information of what is happening in Greece and not just state media propaganda.
In a lot of cities around Europe but also elsewhere, solidarity demos and gatherings have been taking place. I believe that it is essential that these solidarity gatherings should continue and get more publicity, because when you stand in solidarity with the greek working class, you actually demonstrate for your rights as well. Proletarians have no country, the bosses and the capitalists together with the state have started a war against the working class, not only in Greece but in whole Europe, basically in the whole capitalist world. What I also believe, is that sooner or later, Greece will become the next Egypt, the first in the EU and the Eurozone, and in this uprising the working class of whole Europe should join.
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL
SMASH THE STATE
SMASH CAPITALISM.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Similar threads
