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Athens Greece: Cops murder a 16 year old

Can you explain what happened here papageorgiou12 :

"The President of the Greek steel workers union, a member of the Greek Communist Party, allows the leaders of the Golden Dawn (a fascist organization with a history of murdering immigrants and lefts) to speak at a picket line."
Did it happen? and if so why?
 
I have to make a correction here, ayatollah! KKE's site (http://inter.kke.gr/ - this is the version in English, but the same applies in the other versions) does NOT have a "heroes gallery" at all. I am not sure what you are referring to - maybe you have mistakenly opened the sites of one of the small groupings here in Greece that use "KKE" as part of their title (for example, "KKE(ml) or "ML-KKE"). These groupings draw their origin from Maoist minor splittings within the communist movement.

The actual question of Stalin and socialist construction in the USSR is an important one that deserves an involved discussion. I am not sure that it can be tackled here. KKE has studied the issue collectively and arrived at some conclusions during its last 18th Congress. The document is here (in English): http://inter.kke.gr/News/2009news/18congres-resolution-2nd

You are quite right papageorgiou12 , impressed by your tactical outline of the situation, I did , in trying to find out more on the KKE, mistakenly access what I now see is a KKE Maoist grouping of some sort. My sincere apologies if I have misrepresenting your current position. However in now accessing your actual KKE site I find that the theoretical content is broadly very similar to the Maoist sites - seems so to me in broad outline anyway.

You know from my post how I view the Stalinist experience of "socialism" . Though having now accessed some KKE analysis on the USSR experience, I have to say your position actually appears very little different overall to the Maoists to me, OK, no Heroes Gallery, BUT also , as with the Maoists - no real problem with Stalinism in the USSR in broad detail I would suggest . . So HAS the KKE moved away from the position that it , and it alone is the "vanguard party" of the working class in the classical Leninist sense, both before and AFTER the socialist revolution ? An important issue , given the vital need for the LEFT together to work in open sincerity to meet the dramatic needs of the crisis .

I thought this piece from your KKE analysis/defence of the lack of even basic democracy (workers democracy I mean - I don't give a toss about capitalist's rights either ) in the Soviet Union during its entire history is illuminating :

Bourgeois and opportunist propaganda, speaking of lack of freedom and anti-democratic regimes, projects the concepts of “democracy” and “freedom” in their bourgeois content, identifying democracy with bourgeois parliamentarism and freedom with bourgeois individualism and private capitalist ownership. The real essence of freedom and democracy under capitalism is the economic coercion of wage slavery and the dictatorship of capital, in society in general and especially inside capitalist enterprises. Our critical approach regarding workers’ and people’s control and participation has no relation whatsoever to the bourgeois and opportunist polemics regarding democracy and “rights” in the USSR.

Now this, and ALL the other defensive arguments put forward by the KKE about the Soviet union is VERY slippery stuff. Justifying Stalin's reign of terror, the Gulags, the actuall usurpation of workers power by a new bureaucratic grouping or caste (or "Class" to critics like the Yugolslav Djilas) under Stalinism, purely because this bureaucracy in its own interests maintained this state of socialised ownership and control of most property, is simply not acceptable to most non Stalinist socialists, and never will be. A failure to totally repudiate Stalinism will obviously always leave the KKE's long term motives suspect to its vital potential allies on the Left.
 
Yes, simplistic notions from some on here. Stalinism in a roundabout way bought with it wage increases in the west from the capitalist class, who were worried about tanks rolling across Germany, along with mass support from the Italian and French Communist party's*. I'm no "Stalinist", but it's an easy label to ascribe to someone and in reality doesn't add much to the debate here.

* http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004718
 
Yes, simplistic notions from some on here. Stalinism in a roundabout way bought with it wage increases in the west from the capitalist class, who were worried about tanks rolling across Germany, along with mass support from the Italian and French Communist party's*. I'm no "Stalinist", but it's an easy label to ascribe to someone and in reality doesn't add much to the debate here.

* http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004718

It's also true that fear of post WWII Communist takeover in Europe in the wake of wartime devastation led directly to the vital and successful USA funded Marshall Aid Programme - precisely what Europe needs now to get it moving again (still within capitalism of course) as a viable economic system.

I agree it is easy to throw the term "Stalinism" around too easily, but unfortunately important political movements like the KKE really are "Stalinist" , because their vision of "socialism" is actually what went on in the Soviet Union, China, (still does in North Korea), Eastern Europe, ie a ruthless police state run entirely by an all-powerful "vanguard" Communist Party apparatus at every level in the state machine, with no room for dissent or alternative workers parties or policies. This is a false facade of a socialist society behind which a parasitic bureaucratic ("state capitalist" in some definitions) class or caste actually extorts great privileges/wealth at the expense of the rest of the society.This is simply NOT a "socialism" worth struggling for - and has unfortunately provided a disastrously widely held vision of what "socialism" is which turns off the majority of the working class from looking to collective socialist solutions to the current world crisis. It is the duty of all genuine socialists to denounce the "Stalinist" model of "socialism" as a complete perversion of the rational, planned, egalitarian, democratis society that socialism could be.
 
Yes, simplistic notions from some on here. Stalinism in a roundabout way bought with it wage increases in the west from the capitalist class, who were worried about tanks rolling across Germany, along with mass support from the Italian and French Communist party's*. I'm no "Stalinist", but it's an easy label to ascribe to someone and in reality doesn't add much to the debate here.

* http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004718
Lol mega lol etc

What was this roundabout way and why is placing millions of other people under an oppressive anti-w/c regime a fair price for them to pay for your shitty wage rise? (aside from it not happening and the post-war settlement being based on the integration of wage-labour through social democracy as both labour market and consumer market not fear of stalinism).
 
Sorry its the daily fail but...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tons-Greece-prepares-sign-rescue-package.html
But the prospect of further disturbances in Greece loomed again when Germany was accused of seeking to undermine democracy in Athens.

Eurozone finance chiefs will consider a German proposal to ban the Greeks from receiving cash unless they delay their general election due in April.

German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble wants to keep a technocratic Greek government in place to ensure austerity measures are taken.

Under the plan, officials from the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund will establish a permanent office in Athens to exercise day-to-day control of spending.
What fucking right have they got to tell another country when it can have elections. As if controlling their finances wasn't enough.

We need a Europe wide backlash against this undemocratic shit. I suggest a "Hang these parasites from lampposts" day.
I'm fucking pissed off.:mad:
 
Lol all you want butchersapron, but there is an element of truth in what I've posted.

I'm afraid I don't have time for any further debate, as I've a "Stalinist" medical assessment and appeal to sort out that I've left to fester. Wish I had a tank to hand.
 
403004_239749599446336_100002338946651_511762_890207437_n.jpg
 
Can you explain what happened here papageorgiou12 :

"The President of the Greek steel workers union, a member of the Greek Communist Party, allows the leaders of the Golden Dawn (a fascist organization with a history of murdering immigrants and lefts) to speak at a picket line."
Did it happen? and if so why?

Of course it happened :

The uploader is a Golden Dawn sympathizer (or even member).
 
Hello all. Let me tell you that I have passed my Sunday on a floor of the police headquarters building in Athens (GADA). This is because I was detained, together with 60 more people, basically for no reason at all. While I was in Exarchia, central Athens, for no apparent reason (there was no demo or riot taking place) police surrounded the streets around the main square of Exarchia, and was detaining whoever they believed that they should. They detained people who were just walking on the street, or drinking coffee at a cafe. The official "excuse" was that I had no ID with me, so I went with them for identification. As far as I know they did the same and with people in Monastiraki area (again an area of central Athens). Of course their motive was different, they wanted comrades from Exarchia area being detained during Sunday, as they wanted to be sure that we will not be on the streets of Athens during Sunday. We were all packed in a small room, were not given any official excuse as to why we where there for hours, we were not even given water when some people asked. We were then asked to give various information as to if we were on the demo last Sunday, if we knew anything for the arsons that took place and so on. After hours of nerve braking procedures and waiting for no reason packed in a very small room they started the identification procedure and we were being released. Up to the time I left no one got arrested, I do not know if any of the ones after me got arrested but I do not think so....

This is not the first time that the police is performing precautionary detentions. Actually after the riots one week ago a number of politicians and others in the mass media criticized the police that they did not do any precautionary detentions before the demos in order to minimize the chance of riots, as they have done on other occasions at the past.

I also wanted to answer to a couple of things to Papageorgiou but I am really not in the mood now just one thing .... Papageorgiou if in a way I summarize what you say is that KKE is working in the work place in order a communist revolution to be formed ... Well if you have not noticed let me remind you that you are seriously running out of time. The attack of the capitalists together with our puppet state to the working class has intensified and action is needed to be taken NOW, in order to block all these new laws that the parliament is passing through that turn as from workers to slaves.... You are good to be ironic to the anarchist movement and in purpose you mix anarchists with plain clothed police and provocateurs as if they are all one thing, but I do not see how KKE is helping the working class either... Of course you "forget" that for decades plain clothed police and agent provocateurs were getting mixed with KKE members in order to fish for information, they have now stopped bothering with KKE exactly because it is no more a threat to the system.. I am telling you for one more time sooner or later you will be the working class party that does not really represent the working class, the changes that are taking place are so quick and violent, that the counter reaction of the workers will be similar and not necessarily within your framework.
 
So HAS the KKE moved away from the position that it , and it alone is the "vanguard party" of the working class in the classical Leninist sense, both before and AFTER the socialist revolution ? An important issue , given the vital need for the LEFT together to work in open sincerity to meet the dramatic needs of the crisis .

The very concept of the "vanguard party", leading party of the class, presupposes the unique role of one party. There can be no vanguard role of 2,3,4 or more parties holding different strategic perspectives and leading the working class movement to different directions, if we accept that the overthrow of capitalism and the construction of socialism-communism is the goal. KKE has definitely not "moved away" from this cardinal Leninist principle - there is nothing in historical experience that can convince it that socialist revolution can be effected and carried forward without a leading Party.

I thought this piece from your KKE analysis/defence of the lack of even basic democracy (workers democracy I mean - I don't give a toss about capitalist's rights either ) in the Soviet Union during its entire history is illuminating :


Bourgeois and opportunist propaganda, speaking of lack of freedom and anti-democratic regimes, projects the concepts of “democracy” and “freedom” in their bourgeois content, identifying democracy with bourgeois parliamentarism and freedom with bourgeois individualism and private capitalist ownership. The real essence of freedom and democracy under capitalism is the economic coercion of wage slavery and the dictatorship of capital, in society in general and especially inside capitalist enterprises. Our critical approach regarding workers’ and people’s control and participation has no relation whatsoever to the bourgeois and opportunist polemics regarding democracy and “rights” in the USSR.

I think you are reading the excerpt above in the wrong light. It is indeed illuminating for two basic reasons:
1. It reaffirms the oft-forgotten, in today's climate of virulent anti-communism, teaching of Lenin (and before him of Marx) of the class nature of any democracy. The fact that there is no neutral "democracy", that democracy can be either bourgeois or proletarian. That bourgeois democracy, even under its most benevolent parliamentarian forms, is in fact a dictatorship of the forces of capital. This has become even more obvious today.
2. It makes clear that KKE's "critical approach regarding workers' and people's control and participation" (i.e critical about aspects of socialist construction in the USSR) does not start (and should not start) from the same premises as the bourgeois and opportunist polemics.

There are aspects of how KKE views the development of socialist democracy in Chapter D of its programmatic document about socialism. In addition, there are important elements about the historical developments in the USSR, as far as workers' participation is concerned, that require further study. This is mentioned clearly in the following passages:

"On the basis of the preceding evaluations and directives, the new C.C should organize the deeper study and extraction of conclusions on a series of issues:

* The forms of organisation of workers’ participation, their rights and duties, during different periods of Soviet Power, such as the Workers’ Committees and the Production Councils in the 1920’s, the Stakhanovite movement in the 1930’s, in contrast to the “self-management councils” under perestroika. Their relationship to Central Planning and the realisation of the social character of ownership over the means of production.

* The development of the Soviets as a form of the dictatorship of the proletariat. How was the relationship “Party – Soviet – working class and popular forces” realized during the different phases of socialist construction in the USSR. Issues concerning the functional downgrading of the production unit as the nucleus of organisation of workers’ power, with the abolition of the principle of the production unit being the electoral unit and of the indirect election of delegates through congresses and assemblies. The negative impact on the class composition of the higher state organs and on the application of the right of recall of delegates."

By saying all of the above, I am not hiding the fact that KKE has a largely positive view on the role of Stalin in the construction of socialism in the Soviet Union. This view is not based on some blind faith on personalities, on survivals of some "cult of personality" (for several decades after the infamous 20th Congress of the CPSU, KKE itself was thouroughy cleansed of such survivals by the ideological followers of Krushchev in our Party). It is based on a historical materialist interpretation of the unfolding of socialist construction in the USSR, first and foremost in the field of economic relations, which reveals the unsurpassed ability of Stalin to understand the contradictions inherent in the building of socialism and to chart a basically correct path towards solving them. The 20th Congress in 1956 constitutes a point of opportunist turn, precisely because it adopted theoretical positions and implemented practical policies that led to a sharpening of the contradictions and eventually to the counter-revolutionary demise of the USSR.
 
By saying all of the above, I am not hiding the fact that KKE has a largely positive view on the role of Stalin in the construction of socialism in the Soviet Union. This view is not based on some blind faith on personalities, on survivals of some "cult of personality" (for several decades after the infamous 20th Congress of the CPSU, KKE itself was thouroughy cleansed of such survivals by the ideological followers of Krushchev in our Party). It is based on a historical materialist interpretation of the unfolding of socialist construction in the USSR, first and foremost in the field of economic relations, which reveals the unsurpassed ability of Stalin to understand the contradictions inherent in the building of socialism and to chart a basically correct path towards solving them. The 20th Congress in 1956 constitutes a point of opportunist turn, precisely because it adopted theoretical positions and implemented practical policies that led to a sharpening of the contradictions and eventually to the counter-revolutionary demise of the USSR.

a basically correct path. was the anti-semetism, the sending of anarchists and trotskyists and other opponents of his, and their kids to gulags, the holodomor, etc, the crimean tartars was that an understanding of the building of socialism? seems like the correct path to being a murderous lunatic

i actually have enjoyed reading your and dimitris's posts and dont take this as a personal attack , but i think this bit needs more explanation, to say the least
 
a basically correct path. was the anti-semetism, the sending of anarchists and trotskyists and other opponents of his, and their kids to gulags, the holodomor, etc, the crimean tartars was that an understanding of the building of socialism? seems like the correct path to being a murderous lunatic

I've posted this before but it deserves another hearing and is well put by Anne Applebaum in her book 'Gulag'.

Under Stalin, the 'crimes' that people were arrested, tried and sentenced for were nonsensical and the procedures by which people were investigated and convicted were absurd, but its inmates arrived most of the time via a legal system. No one tried and sentenced the Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe. When people entered the Gulag system they never thought for a moment they were going to die and most didn't, unlike the death camps of the Nazi's which were built for the specific purpose of killing people. An important distinction.

As you can see this relates specifically to the Gulags. I'm not in anyway questioning the other points you make.
 
By saying all of the above, I am not hiding the fact that KKE has a largely positive view on the role of Stalin in the construction of socialism in the Soviet Union. This view is not based on some blind faith on personalities, on survivals of some "cult of personality" (for several decades after the infamous 20th Congress of the CPSU, KKE itself was thouroughy cleansed of such survivals by the ideological followers of Krushchev in our Party). It is based on a historical materialist interpretation of the unfolding of socialist construction in the USSR, first and foremost in the field of economic relations, which reveals the unsurpassed ability of Stalin to understand the contradictions inherent in the building of socialism and to chart a basically correct path towards solving them. The 20th Congress in 1956 constitutes a point of opportunist turn, precisely because it adopted theoretical positions and implemented practical policies that led to a sharpening of the contradictions and eventually to the counter-revolutionary demise of the USSR.

Do you remember how the KKE was 'cleansed'? Do you remember the bit where dissident members of the CC where found dead in the cellar of the leading party member? - Honestly - truth is stranger than the fiction you write.

No reply on giving a platform to fascists then??

I guess I must be "opportunist"?

It that the "historical materialist interpretation" that quietly skips about 30 years of soviet history?!!
 
Re papageorgiou12 's long clarification of the KKE positions on Stalin, Democracy, Socialism , etc, etc. Have you ever sat next to a stranger in a pub, started chatting over a drink, thought he seems quite a good bloke -- then after a while, as the drink flows, he opens up a bit and it turns out he tortures small animals for a hobby ? Well that is my strong remaining impression as papageorgiou12's extraordinary unreconstructed Stalinism has poured out. All I can say is that there are rivers of blood between Stalinists like you papageorgiou12 and the aims and methods and political philosophy of revolutionery socialism. It certainly DOESN't seem likely that many on the Revolutionery Left in Greece would want to buddy up with the KKE in the coming struggle... too bloody dangerous ! I had thought this sort of extreme stalinism had become the preserve nowadays of tiny maoist sects - apparently not. A tragedy for Greece that such an important party is trapped in a circa 1936 timewarp.
 
And its reported that the KKE has ruled out all cooperation with the various left parties.

Meanwhile, the extreme nationalist Golden Dawn has reached the threshold for entering parliament on 3% in the polls. :hmm:
 
Do you remember how the KKE was 'cleansed'? Do you remember the bit where dissident members of the CC where found dead in the cellar of the leading party member? - Honestly - truth is stranger than the fiction you write.

No reply on giving a platform to fascists then??

1. Dissident members of the CC in the cellar of the party leader! What in the world are you talking about and what does it have to do with the actual facts of the removal of the General Secretary of KKE and most of its Politbureau immediately after the 20th Congress of the CPSU?
2. Who gave a platform to the fascists? Do you have any idea how trade unions work or how that particular picket line where the fascists went is structured? Have you ever participated in a picket line? PAME is leading that strike, but communists are not the majority among the workers and it is not the Party that can decide who speaks and who doesn't. By your logic, you are damned if you do, but you are also damned if you don't.
 
Re papageorgiou12 's long clarification of the KKE positions on Stalin, Democracy, Socialism , etc, etc. Have you ever sat next to a stranger in a pub, started chatting over a drink, thought he seems quite a good bloke -- then after a while, as the drink flows, he opens up a bit and it turns out he tortures small animals for a hobby ? Well that is my strong remaining impression as papageorgiou12's extraordinary unreconstructed Stalinism has poured out. All I can say is that there are rivers of blood between Stalinists like you papageorgiou12 and the aims and methods and political philosophy of revolutionery socialism. It certainly DOESN't seem likely that many on the Revolutionery Left in Greece would want to buddy up with the KKE in the coming struggle... too bloody dangerous ! I had thought this sort of extreme stalinism had become the preserve nowadays of tiny maoist sects - apparently not. A tragedy for Greece that such an important party is trapped in a circa 1936 timewarp.

A tragedy for a number of countries that bourgeois thinking has taken over progressive people to a degree that the mere mentioning of Stalin's name generates images of "rivers of blood", "torturing of animals", etc, etc and calls forth cries of "unreconstructed" commies, the same cries that the previous generations of Greek communists were hearing from their torturers on the islands of exile. Anyway, there aren't that many in the "revolutionary left" in Greece outside KKE these days, so your worries about potential allies are unfounded.
 
those vids are fantastic :D

MTWism appeared after the break up of MIM in the United $nakes of Amerikkka (famous for their unintentionally funny film reviews). It first appeared at a blog called Monkey Smashes Heaven, itself now defunct but archived at the site of LLCO, an organisation formed by old MIM members who kept an internet presence (including MSH). The org's 'journal' keeps the old blog's name.

It's pretty much an interpretation of the Mao-Deng Three Worlds Theory, Leninist positions on imperialism, the theory of a labour aristocracy, and fancifully calls for a global people's war coordinated by a worldwide united front. 'Socialism' afterwards is just your Soviet-Chinese (Stalinist) models, although by way of the JDPON (Joint Dictatorship of the Proletariat of Oppressed Nations, sometimes using Exploited), which was built on a flawed idea of Lin Biao's.

It's not a tendency in any meaningful sense of the word, just a few oddballs posting stuff on the internet. That's all it will ever be. One other group formed by other MIM members is the Rural People's Party, which appears to have blended elements of Juche with what they call Jim Jones Thought (I kid you not), using Jonestown as a model. They have their own commune somewhere in the US. It would perhaps be best to keep well away from that lot. Seems like a fucked up, weird cult.
 
The latest "bail out" package agreed by Greece's politicians is certainly Alice in Wonderland Stuff - apparently all the austerity measures are very likely to so destroy Greece's production capacity that in about 4 years time, rather than the debt being reduced by all these measures... they will be EVEN BIGGER ! Truly the economics of the mad house - except for international capitalism which is now in a position to pick up Greece's national assets and resources at fire sale prices.

A sobering vision of what awaits , Portugal, Spain , and Italy, not far down the line. Unfortunately, the political parties on the Left in Greece may well not be up to the historic task facing them. The position of the very significant KKE is, as we know here from recent posts, stuck politically somewhere in the 1930's Stalin era past ( their party "historical analysis" sees the "rot" in the USSR as starting as soon as Stalin died and Krushchev had the temerity to question some of his more murderous policies ! - I had thought only small Maoist sects thought this !). A tragedy that the KKE, trapped in this extreme vanguardist/Leninist position will not be able to pull the rest of the Left around it in a genuine popular front -- absolutely essential as the economic and political situation in Greece reaches boiling point. The extreme stalinist political posture of the KKE, means that every other party of the Left must know that the KKE has only two possible places in mind for them if it ever came to power - the cells or the death pit - not a promising basis for multi Left group/party co-operation in struggle ! A splintered and internally warring Left will be easy prey for the Generals if they once again decide to take over to "save the nation" from chaos further down the line.
 
In the late 1930s thousands of innocents were sent to camps of the GULAG or simply to their deaths in Ukraine SSR, on round, cuddly lil' Nikita's (and lil' Nikolai Yezhov's) watch. After years licking Iron Lazar Kaganovich and the man of steel's ring pieces, he returned as party boss of that republic in 1938 with a big team of state security. That was, of course, after he'd supported the NKVD in Moscow (where he was oblast secretary), searching for Trotskyite-Fascist rings to smash, etc.
 
The bourgeoisie in every country uses Stalin and the Soviet construction of socialism (or rather the distortion of what transpired in the Soviet Union in those years) as a boogeyman to slander socialism and to deter the working classes from searching for a path outside capitalism. On the other hand, various groupings on the so-called left (a loose term that can be applied equally well to pro-capitalist forces) borrow weapons from the anti-communist arsenal (tens of millions executed by Stalin, Holodomor and other fairytales) to slander the communist parties and gain political clout. Many of these groupings, due to their miniscule size and their political isolation from the working class, revolve ad nauseum and pick fights around historical events of a now distant past, a past that can only serve to draw inspiration and lessons.

KKE is a communist party, NOT a left party in general. It is the vanguard party of the working class, not because it says so, nor because it wishes to be, but because it charts the strategic goal of overthrowing capitalism and constructing a workers' state and a classless / stateless society in the long-run. No other significant political force in Greece sets out this strategic goal. No other political party is the party of a distinct social class / stratum (for example, a peasant party). Therefore, a political alliance with such forces (the so-called "unity of the left") is neither obligatory, nor essential at this specific historical juncture. It would create more problems and illusions than it would solve. What is required is the unity of the working class around revolutionary goals and its social alliance with other oppressed strata (mostly self-employed peasants and artisans). And, mind you, there are large numbers of the working class still following (and voting for) the parties of the bourgeoisie, infinitely bigger numbers than the numbers following the so-called "left" parties. Should KKE then make a tactical alliance with bourgeois parties to achieve unity of the working class? If not, what is it that makes more appropriate an alliance with "left" forces? Their self-characterization as such?
 
On the other hand, various groupings on the so-called left (a loose term that can be applied equally well to pro-capitalist forces) borrow weapons from the anti-communist arsenal (tens of millions executed by Stalin, Holodomor and other fairytales) to slander the communist parties and gain political clout. Many of these groupings, due to their miniscule size and their political isolation from the working class, revolve ad nauseum and pick fights around historical events of a now distant past, a past that can only serve to draw inspiration and lessons.

KKE is a communist party, NOT a left party in general. It is the vanguard party of the working class, not because it says so, nor because it wishes to be, but because it charts the strategic goal of overthrowing capitalism and constructing a workers' state and a classless / stateless society in the long-run.

are you for real?
 
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