Assange to face extradition

[smmudge]

Nothing is going to single handedly make governments change their behaviour or start revolutions. But I'd like to think there has been a fair push for a deviation from the 'official' line, both of the governments and popular media (mostly the same line, in the US at least) and wikileaks never did that by itself but its basic premise was at least part of that effort. At the very least it embarrassed some powerful people.

But no it certainly isn't heroic. That's silly. But popular culture is all about image and persona and exaggeration, and a 'hero' narrative falls nicely into that.

 

[danny la rouge]

But I'd like to think there has been a fair push for a deviation from the 'official' line, both of the governments and popular media (mostly the same line, in the US at least) and wikileaks never did that by itself but its basic premise was at least part of that effort.

You'd like to think it, or you do think it? If the latter, why?

What has this push consisted of? What deviation from the official line has occurred in popular media in the US because of Wikileaks, that wouldn't have happened otherwise? (I'm not saying it didn't happen, by the way. Just looking for evidence).

 

[smmudge]

You'd like to think it, or you do think it? If the latter, why?

What has this push consisted of? What deviation from the official line has occurred in popular media in the US because of Wikileaks, that wouldn't have happened otherwise? (I'm not saying it didn't happen, by the way. Just looking for evidence).

I don't think the popular media has deviated, not significantly anyway (I said a deviation from the popular media, not in the popular media). The push would be the plethora of online magazines, bloggers, writers, commenters and tweeters on a myriad of different subjects nowadays, some of which have used wikileak documents for their arguments. But who knows what will happen. Perhaps there's too much noise and it will end up with these one or two big channels pushing the rest of them to the fringes, essentially mirroring modernism's one-to-many mass media. But the ideal is the democratisation of media, and if it's not happening we at least have the tools at our disposal.

 

[danny la rouge]

I can't understand your prose, sorry. When you said: "But I'd like to think there has been a fair push for a deviation from the 'official' line, both of the governments and popular media (mostly the same line, in the US at least) and wikileaks never did that by itself but its basic premise was at least part of that effort". You meant "deviation from the popular media", by which you meant people have turned from the popular media to "online magazines, bloggers, writers, commenters and tweeters"? I'm sorry, but how was I supposed to divine that from your original sentence?

Maybe it's me, but I've no idea what you're on about.

 

[elbows]

Blog etc response to the mass of cables released by wikileaks fell well short of my most optimistic hopes. I speculate that the following factors contributed:

The sheer quantity of documents.
The limited number of people who like to trawl through quite dry diplomatic-speak and do Chomsky-like analysis on the contents.
A lack of smoking-gun phrases that would appeal to both the politically aware and the conspiraloons.
Some possible self-censorship in the form of concern about going near the boatloads of cables that were not covered by the mainstream media.

 

[temper_tantrum]

Oh dear, the other thread wasn't enough so we've moved the logic-free conspirafest onto this thread, have we?

 

[smmudge]

I can't understand your prose, sorry. When you said: "But I'd like to think there has been a fair push for a deviation from the 'official' line, both of the governments and popular media (mostly the same line, in the US at least) and wikileaks never did that by itself but its basic premise was at least part of that effort". You meant "deviation from the popular media", by which you meant people have turned from the popular media to "online magazines, bloggers, writers, commenters and tweeters"? I'm sorry, but how was I supposed to divine that from your original sentence?

Maybe it's me, but I've no idea what you're on about.

Oh I see, it's a scope problem. Sorry, I meant the official line was of the government and popular media, not that the deviation was.

 

[elbows]

Oh dear, the other thread wasn't enough so we've moved the logic-free conspirafest onto this thread, have we?

You know Im quite happy to invest time in attacking Assange & his defenders, but Im not quite sure what logic-free conspirafest you are referring to, I don't see much like that in this thread recently. Some incoherence and sucker apologist antics yes, but conspirafest?

 

[temper_tantrum]

You know Im quite happy to invest time in attacking Assange & his defenders, but Im not quite sure what logic-free conspirafest you are referring to, I don't see much like that in this thread recently. Some incoherence and sucker apologist antics yes, but conspirafest?

I was talking to Smmudge, who got comprehensively turned over on the other thread for his/her logic-free and circular approach to this issue.

 

[elbows]

Well you won't find me defending smmudges ability to string together a cohesive argument Its not conspiraloonery though.

 

[temper_tantrum]

Well you won't find me defending smmudges ability to string together a cohesive argument Its not conspiraloonery though.

It's a conspirafest. Everything is about the big ol' US of A creeping round doing stealthy things stealthily. Setting poor old Julian up and then plotting to extradite him from Sweden.
I didn't say conspiraloonery. That denotes full-on tinfoilhatness. I said conspirafest. Which it is. Assange's supporters are indulging in an epic conspirafest.

Anyway, this is a pointless conversation.

 

[smmudge]

I like to think of things more as evolving discussions rather than stating and defending persisting arguments. Unless I'm in court.

 

[Citizen66]

It's a conspirafest. Everything is about the big ol' US of A creeping round doing stealthy things stealthily. Setting poor old Julian up and then plotting to extradite him from Sweden.
I didn't say conspiraloonery. That denotes full-on tinfoilhatness. I said conspirafest. Which it is. Assange's supporters are indulging in an epic conspirafest.

Given that the US is on record for kidnapping people and spiriting them away to places outside of their jurasdiction for purposes of torture, I don't think the scenario you mention is that far fetched. Of course, it may be untrue. But it's hardly 'conspirafest'.

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh I see, it's a scope problem. Sorry, I meant the official line was of the government and popular media, not that the deviation was.

I see. Right, so let me summarise: You said you thought Assange's hero status on the 'left' was to do with his actions, and it turns out that this is because his organisation was one of a number of factors contributing towards a tendency for people nowadays to use blogs and Twitter a bit more.

I continue to be underwhelmed.

 

[Delroy Booth]

If only all this fuss and effort could've been directed in defense of Bradley Manning and not a egomaniac like Assange.

 

[Spymaster]

(Bradley Manning is a different issue. He deserves all the support we can give him, and I applaud the efforts of Amnesty to improve his conditions and get him out of Quantico).

Conditional support for him to be fairly treated, yes, but unconditional support for what he's done? That's far more debateable.

If we acknowledge that there is a need for some level of secrecy in government dealings, we have to accept that people engaged in dealing with sensitive information should be dissuaded from leaking it, and that those that do should face consequences.

 

[smmudge]

I see. Right, so let me summarise: You said you thought Assange's hero status on the 'left' was to do with his actions, and it turns out that this is because his organisation was one of a number of factors contributing towards a tendency for people nowadays to use blogs and Twitter a bit more.

I continue to be underwhelmed.

Yes, I also said his hero status was silly.

Also you might like to underplay it as people using "blogs and twitter a bit more", but personally I think the democratisation of media is a great thing.

 

[danny la rouge]

Conditional support for him to be fairly treated, yes, but unconditional support for what he's done? That's far more debateable.

What he's allegedly done.

Conditional support for him to be fairly treated? Under what circumstances would you support him being unfairly treated?

 

[danny la rouge]

I think the democratisation of media is a great thing.

It will be, when it happens.

 

[Spymaster]

Conditional support for him to be fairly treated? Under what circumstances would you support him being unfairly treated?

None.

 

[smmudge]

It will be, when it happens.

Well, it's a process isn't it. Not one that's perfect by all means, or very far along, but one that I think is certainly happening now. Don't you think it has started already?

 

[danny la rouge]

None.

So it's not conditional, then. You support him being fairly treated.

 

[temper_tantrum]

It's like running through treacle.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well, it's a process isn't it. Not one that's perfect by all means, or very far along, but one that I think is certainly happening now. Don't you think it has started already?

Not really, no.

 

[Spymaster]

So it's not conditional, then. You support him being fairly treated.

Of course. I was unclear.

I do not unconditionally support Manning. What he's (allegedly) done is not to be condoned, imo. But now that he's done it he should be dealt with quickly, and reasonably. Subjective, of course.

 

[danny la rouge]

Of course. I was unclear.

I do not unconditionally support Manning. What he's (allegedly) done is not to be condoned, imo. But now that he's done it he should be dealt with quickly, and reasonably. Subjective, of course.

I differ slightly on whether what he's alleged to have done should be condoned, but we agree on the rest. Adrian Lamo sounds like a piece of shit, though.

 

[Spymaster]

I differ slightly on whether what he's alleged to have done should be condoned ....

How slightly?

 

[danny la rouge]

Quite a lot, probably.

 

[Spymaster]

So somewhat more than "slightly", Pilch.

 

[smmudge]

Not really, no.

OK. The irony of saying that on a message board, though...