Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[8ball]

<snip>

Still trying to justify more expensive "solutions".

Though it's helpful that you mark yourself down as a cunt at the end - gives the post more context.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Still trying to justify more expensive "solutions".

Though it's helpful that you mark yourself down as a cunt at the end - gives the post more context.

Go and fuck yourself, you revolting piece of dog shit.

If you object to the above, then don't indulge in gratuitous abuse, wanker.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Can you respond to my post here please, Sasaferrato?

 

[teqniq]

*bump*

I'm reasonably certain that most people must be aware by now of recent reports that the NHS is close to collapse and that the British Red Cross has intervened to assist in the transportation of patients, government protestations to the contrary and the recent unavailability of the worm that is Jeremy Hunt for comment on the situation - he now faces a potential grilling in the HOC about this today

this has also come to light:

 

[Sasaferrato]

The German system functions well, but it's uneconomical compared to the NHS, and lag times for "popular" specialisms are long compared to the NHS.



Maybe hospital staff avoid giving you good service, because you're such a crabbit old scrote?
In the last 6 months I've had 6 procedures on my GI tract and bowel, as well as general outpatient stuff like x-rays, bloods and physio. The only complaint I can level at my treatment, is that appointment times sometimes slipped. Apart from that, the service was excellent.



Dementia care has always been shit. it's a question of resource allocation. People with dementia don't tend to vote, so...
As for obesity, we both know it's solvable through education and legislation, but the ruling classes don't give a fuck for povs.



And there's the rub! No cunt who supports marketisation ever stops to think that invariably private-sector provision is worse, both because of the profit motive - and how profits are realised - and because the people at the top of the provider pyramid have no vocation beyond bean-counting.

Let me make my view crystal clear. As long as the service provided is good, I really don't give a damn who provides it. I would prefer it to be the NHS, as it is an established and known system.

A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.

So many things that could be done. Central purchasing for the whole NHS for example; a recent BBC (IIRC) investigation found that some hospitals were paying twice that of another, for surgical gloves. Scrap the GP commissioning idiocy, fund the hospital against its demographic, and let the GPs refer their patients. Every penny spent on admin (and I'm not talking about people like medical secretaries and patient records clerks) is potentially a wasted penny. A flat management structure in nursing, remove the promoted posts, which take the best out of the wards, and increase pay in line with experience instead, thereby retaining the highly experienced people at the sharp end.

I could go on, but I think you understand where I'm coming from. There is a hell of a lot of money being siphoned off for no real purpose, money that could going to patient care.

Oh, and crucify Hunt, who is a liar and an incompetent.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The means-testing model has never worked. We've had almost 200 years of trying it in various forms from the advent of the poor laws until now. The reason is that if you set up a distinction between those 'on welfare' and those not, a self-destruction mechanism is right away built into the system that sees the well-off use their political power to deprive others of access to those services. The only system that is sustainable politically as well as economically is a universal one based on medical need and funded via progressive taxation.

It is not means testing. It is a system that gives medical care to all, at the time they need it. If the person is employed, the 'sick bank', which collects their contributions, pays. If they are unemployed, the government pays, but every one is treated in the same manner.

I should add, I don't know the current state of German health care, I haven't been in Germany for a year or so. I'll be there in May, and, as always, will ask how things are going.

 

[Old Spark]

The idea of an organisation which spends £120billion plus being "close to collapse" is alarming until you realise ,with a rising and aging population and massive council cuts restricting social care ,it always will be.

So play chancellor -think the unthinkable,what needs to be done?

1.reduce demand-the only permanent way to do that are is by getting us to live more healthily-standing up to the food and drinks lobby would be a significant start(minimum price etc). Exercise in public places (compulsory for the obese) like the japs .Ban smoking anywhere.End cheap supermarket booze -make everyone walk to the pub.Meditate every day.Always run for the bus.Play sport.

2.Increase supply -more gps and doctors ,nurses -but without stealing them from their country of origin.If anything encourage foreign doctors to go back homewhere they may be needed more.

3.Deliver Leave promise on extra £350million a week for the nhs,prosecute more rich people found guilty of tax evasion .Tax wealth and international corporate capitalism.

4.Install sky sports ,al jazeera,pbs into all nursing homes-I am not going if I have to watch daytime tv.Respect the elderly and encourage families to look after their own by public subsidy.

5.Live for today in a non judgemental way -dont regret the past ,dont fear the future.

6.Try to give up prescription drugs(see exercise and meditation etc ).

7.Go veggie.

8..Er thats it.

 

[alex_]

A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.

Presumably you think consultants should be rebooking appointments, dealing with hr issues and phoning the plumber when the toilet is broken ?

Alex

 

[Libertad]

6.Try to give up prescription drugs(see exercise and meditation etc ).

I don't think you've thought this through.

 

[Orang Utan]

As long as the service provided is good, I really don't give a damn who provides it. .

you should

 

[Plumdaff]

A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.

If you genuinely believe admin staff do nothing for the patient you have nothing of use to say about how to run a health service. FFS. I was involved in turning round a service from being the worst to best performing service nationally in our field and we didn't really do anything that clinically different; mostly we changed our administration - including having more admin staff - which allowed us to clear waiting lists and work quickly and effectively. Clueless.

 

[Orang Utan]

stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money.

I sincerely hope you have no idea what the term 'useless eaters' means and were just using it blindly, in the way a utilitarian with no sense of history or even decency would

 

[agricola]

The idea of an organisation which spends £120billion plus being "close to collapse" is alarming until you realise ,with a rising and aging population and massive council cuts restricting social care ,it always will be.

So play chancellor -think the unthinkable,what needs to be done?

1.reduce demand-the only permanent way to do that are is by getting us to live more healthily-standing up to the food and drinks lobby would be a significant start(minimum price etc). Exercise in public places (compulsory for the obese) like the japs .Ban smoking anywhere.End cheap supermarket booze -make everyone walk to the pub.Meditate every day.Always run for the bus.Play sport.

2.Increase supply -more gps and doctors ,nurses -but without stealing them from their country of origin.If anything encourage foreign doctors to go back homewhere they may be needed more.

3.Deliver Leave promise on extra £350million a week for the nhs,prosecute more rich people found guilty of tax evasion .Tax wealth and international corporate capitalism.

4.Install sky sports ,al jazeera,pbs into all nursing homes-I am not going if I have to watch daytime tv.Respect the elderly and encourage families to look after their own by public subsidy.

5.Live for today in a non judgemental way -dont regret the past ,dont fear the future.

6.Try to give up prescription drugs(see exercise and meditation etc ).

7.Go veggie.

8..Er thats it.

All PFI deals should be nationalized, the internal market and its associated structures should be disposed of, recruitment should be encouraged (by bursaries and whatnot, to the extent that we end up with an oversupply of doctors, paramedics and nursing staff) and streamlined (especially a return to vocational training for nurses, rather than a focus on them having degrees) and taken back in-house, more provision should be made at major hospitals for people who walk in off the street and who are not emergencies (and take pressure off A&E departments), and it should be a requirement that all Trusts should have reserve capacity in terms of beds and staff (in the order of at least 20% over normal operating levels) to cope with emergencies. I'd also like to see some system put in place whereby staff can safely raise concerns over working practices and standards and not be victimized for it.

 

[Pickman's model]

A major problem that the NHS has is the number of clingons it supports. A stripping out of the useless eaters would free up a lot of money. Our local hospital has 37 admin staff, that is people who provide nothing for the patient.

how do you know they provide nothing for the patient? would you prefer it if clinicians did the admin and spent less time with patients? who do you think deals with the bills and ordering pills, etc?

 

[Libertad]

All PFI deals should be nationalized

Without compensation.

 

[Sasaferrato]

how do you know they provide nothing for the patient? would you prefer it if clinicians did the admin and spent less time with patients? who do you think deals with the bills and ordering pills, etc?

Do the job properly, and there are few bills that need to be paid directly by the hospital. Ordering of drugs is job of the pharmacy btw, not by admin staff.

You seem to be defending the huge admin burden carried by the NHS, a goodly amount of which can be eliminated by going back to the process of hospitals being funded, and GPs referring their patients. The present system also generates a hell of a lot of admin for the GPs, many of whom are retiring or emigrating as a result. My own GP couldn't stand it any longer, and retired.

I have a distinct feeling that you have never been involved in the running of a hospital, I have. If the NHS were to adopt the military model, the savings would be immense. The benefits include:

Central purchasing and distribution of drugs, dressing, disposables and equipment.
A very flat management system.
Senior nurses at the sharp end, not in admin posts.
Single training facilities for all specialities, such as Radiographers, Lab Techs, Pharmacy techs Physiotherapists etc.
Clinical specialities run by the senior clinicians.
Centralised HR & pay.
Legal accountability at Ward Sister level. (This does exist in the NHS at present, but is never enforced.)

Standardisation of equipment across the whole estate brings large savings, both in terms of economies of scale in purchase, and in parts inventory for equipment maintenance.

When attending outpatient appointments in three different hospitals, I observed three different brands of disposable gloves, and two different brands of syringes. Each hospital is negotiating its own supply contract. Say they buy 500 boxes of gloves a year, then consider what discount can be obtained if you are buying 50,000 boxes, delivered to four or five locations. We could generally get 15 - 20% under Drug Tariff prices, because we were buying big quantities, delivered to a single point. The army was minute compared to NHS quantities, so further savings should be achieved.

The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP if allowed to, however, it is crystal clear that more money is urgently needed to alleviate the current crisis. The underlying problem is not so easy to resolve, which is the number of beds lost over the last decade. New provision needs to be built.

We also need an urgent increase in elderly care facilities, patients who are ready for discharge, but unable to manage in their own homes, and who have nowhere else to go are clogging the hospitals. Not their fault of course, but the fault of serial governments who have not made proper provision.

Where is the the money coming from? Well, scrapping Trident, scrapping HS2 and curtailing overseas aid would help. At a time when the NHS is dying on it's feet, does it really make sense to spend £12Bn in overseas aid? The government has a duty to look after the people of Britain first. The NHS is not the only problem area; potholed roads, unaffordable public transport, and a rail network which is unfit for role need to be addressed also. Cameron's largess of 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid is not sustainable.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Without compensation.

Yes, the legacy of gormless Gordon, one of the most dishonest men ever to hold the post of Chancellor.

 

[Sasaferrato]

If you genuinely believe admin staff do nothing for the patient you have nothing of use to say about how to run a health service. FFS. I was involved in turning round a service from being the worst to best performing service nationally in our field and we didn't really do anything that clinically different; mostly we changed our administration - including having more admin staff - which allowed us to clear waiting lists and work quickly and effectively. Clueless.

I ran the Pharmacy and Med stores in 640 bed hospital, prior to that I did the same job in smaller hospitals.

People such as medical secretaries and patient record clerks are essential staff, and they are the people who get your lists cleared.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do the job properly, and there are few bills that need to be paid directly by the hospital. Ordering of drugs is job of the pharmacy btw, not by admin staff.

You seem to be defending the huge admin burden carried by the NHS, a goodly amount of which can be eliminated by going back to the process of hospitals being funded, and GPs referring their patients. The present system also generates a hell of a lot of admin for the GPs, many of whom are retiring or emigrating as a result. My own GP couldn't stand it any longer, and retired.

I have a distinct feeling that you have never been involved in the running of a hospital, I have. If the NHS were to adopt the military model, the savings would be immense. The benefits include:

Central purchasing and distribution of drugs, dressing, disposables and equipment.
A very flat management system.
Senior nurses at the sharp end, not in admin posts.
Single training facilities for all specialities, such as Radiographers, Lab Techs, Pharmacy techs Physiotherapists etc.
Clinical specialities run by the senior clinicians.
Centralised HR & pay.
Legal accountability at Ward Sister level. (This does exist in the NHS at present, but is never enforced.)

Standardisation of equipment across the whole estate brings large savings, both in terms of economies of scale in purchase, and in parts inventory for equipment maintenance.

When attending outpatient appointments in three different hospitals, I observed three different brands of disposable gloves, and two different brands of syringes. Each hospital is negotiating its own supply contract. Say they buy 500 boxes of gloves a year, then consider what discount can be obtained if you are buying 50,000 boxes, delivered to four or five locations. We could generally get 15 - 20% under Drug Tariff prices, because we were buying big quantities, delivered to a single point. The army was minute compared to NHS quantities, so further savings should be achieved.

The NHS is capable of absorbing the entire GDP if allowed to, however, it is crystal clear that more money is urgently needed to alleviate the current crisis. The underlying problem is not so easy to resolve, which is the number of beds lost over the last decade. New provision needs to be built.

We also need an urgent increase in elderly care facilities, patients who are ready for discharge, but unable to manage in their own homes, and who have nowhere else to go are clogging the hospitals. Not their fault of course, but the fault of serial governments who have not made proper provision.

Where is the the money coming from? Well, scrapping Trident, scrapping HS2 and curtailing overseas aid would help. At a time when the NHS is dying on it's feet, does it really make sense to spend £12Bn in overseas aid? The government has a duty to look after the people of Britain first. The NHS is not the only problem area; potholed roads, unaffordable public transport, and a rail network which is unfit for role need to be addressed also. Cameron's largess of 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid is not sustainable.

tbh 37 admin staff to help run the hospital doesn't strike me as too many, although it would depend where they were deployed. where i imagine the genuine savings might be made would be in shared payroll and hr. but from the 37 you mention a couple might be library staff - and having worked in a biomedical library i do know something of the need to librarians in the nhs. then there's the people who make sure the hospital is cleaned. the people who deal with logistics. porters. it people. receptionists. 37 not really all that many.

 

[Plumdaff]

I ran the Pharmacy and Med stores in 640 bed hospital, prior to that I did the same job in smaller hospitals.

People such as medical secretaries and patient record clerks are essential staff, and they are the people who get your lists cleared.

Otherwise known as Admin

 

[Sasaferrato]

Otherwise known as Admin

There are none so blind, as those who will not see.

Supercilious git.

 

[two sheds]

Otherwise known as Admin

as was sas

 

[StoneRoad]

My OH has just spent a few days as an in-patient in a PFI hospital - treatment / tests related to infected gall-bladder.
What a shower ...
The building (opened in 2000) is badly designed, with a huge atrium and walkways. None of the bed spaces actually had the right amount of space for bed, chair and locker (apart from the side rooms)
The GP phoned to arrange admission, and we took OH rather that wait for ambulance. To save time. Waited in A&E for nearly 2 1/2 hours and it was only making a fuss that we got inside ... there were eight ambulances queued outside as all cubicles were in use !
Another 3 1/2 hours before actual admission was achieved, and then another three hours to get onto the ward (and even then it wasn't surgical, it was orthopaedics because the proper ward was shut because of Norovirus). Even pain relief had to be demanded, repeatedly.
Finally got an ultrasound scan but now will need an MRI as can't see inside the sludge ...

I must say that the overworked nursing staff were absolute stars, friendly and helpful - but dragged down by a couple of arrogant registrars who were gossiping at the nurses' station (if you must talk about football, do it where the patient's relative's can't see/hear you when you are supposed to be arranging for tests / treatment - and that incident was logged with PALS, btw)

Oh, and the parking had to be paid for, with penalty charges frequently issued. A bottle of "squash" was 50p more than in an expensive supermarket (and was in a franchised outlet, no sign of a "friends" shop ...)

 

[agricola]

It's all the fault of GPs, apparently.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's all the fault of GPs, apparently.

Yeh. Demand a seven day parliament. They'll soon give up on this nonsense if they see people want politicians to actually work.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Listening to 'Any Answers' today, a number of people suggested a rise in income tax, hypothecated to health care.

Any views on that? I would certainly pay an extra 1 or 2% to improve health care. Another suggestion was a flat fee (irrespective of how many items) be imposed on pensioners, of whom there are currently over 11m. As a soon to be pensioner, a fee of £2 or so would be perfectly acceptable. Most of us wrinklies are on at least one long term medication, so £22m a month in new income.

You can discuss until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is that the NHS needs more money, a lot more. This can come from a reduction in spending elsewhere, such as the Overseas Aid budget, or from increased taxation. NHS costs have risen 4% per annum for the last couple of decades, the NHS budget has not.

 

[gosub]

The 7 day a week GP was I presume a manifesto commitment, that they are opportunistically reheating.
I remember at the hustings, our now MP, In response to the question "what can be done to prevent the large number of GP's quitting?" Put forward the idea of 7 day GP's.

Was his first election, and was sticking to head office script. Think the questioner knew what that script was as well. Made no difference he has one of the largest majorities in the house.

 

[gosub]

Listening to 'Any Answers' today, a number of people suggested a rise in income tax, hypothecated to health care.

Any views on that? I would certainly pay an extra 1 or 2% to improve health care. Another suggestion was a flat fee (irrespective of how many items) be imposed on pensioners, of whom there are currently over 11m. As a soon to be pensioner, a fee of £2 or so would be perfectly acceptable. Most of us wrinklies are on at least one long term medication, so £22m a month in new income.

You can discuss until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is that the NHS needs more money, a lot more. This can come from a reduction in spending elsewhere, such as the Overseas Aid budget, or from increased taxation. NHS costs have risen 4% per annum for the last couple of decades, the NHS budget has not.

Didn't we do that when NI went up?

 

[Pickman's model]

The 7 day a week GP was I presume a manifesto commitment, that they are opportunistically reheating.
I remember at the hustings, our now MP, In response to the question "what can be done to prevent the large number of GP's quitting?" Put forward the idea of 7 day GP's.

Was his first election, and was sticking to head office script. Think the questioner knew what that script was as well. Made no difference he has one of the largest majorities in the house.

There aren't the drs available for this, it's a way of making the system collapse in preparation for privatisation at a higher pace

 

[LDC]

Exactly.

"NHS can't provide 7 days a week care? Funnily enough we just so happen to know some companies that will step in and help us out of this terrible crisis."