Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Someone must recognise this as belonging to their child or grandchild,ignorant fucker....

the western media, western politicians and the pro junta twitterati have used that pic to claim the DPR fighters were looting the belongings of the dead. In actuality what this man is saying is we want those bastards to see who they are shooting down. He was in fact quite respectful, as this video shows. A very different incident from what the western media are saying.

 

[goldenecitrone]

the western media, western politicians and the pro junta twitterati have used that pic to claim the DPR fighters were looting the belongings of the dead. In actuality what this man is saying is we want those bastards to see who they are shooting down.

Brave man, calling Putin a bastard on camera.

 

[2hats]

the western media, western politicians and the pro junta twitterati have used that pic to claim the DPR fighters were looting the belongings of the dead.

I thought that they were using photos of them reported to be collecting rings and jewellery eg:

Or focussing on reports from several different journalists on the ground about the lack of wallets, phones, laptops at the crash sites? Or the reports of some passenger phones being answered by folks with Slavic palatalisation and phone companies then having to disable the relevant SIM cards/handsets. I guess if the banks who issued passenger credit/debit cards report subsequent card misuse that would be reasonably convincing evidence of looting.

Worth noting that after PA103 four people were reportedly arrested for looting the wreckage (can't see if they were subsequently charged but clearly the police were on the ball and/or others were reporting them).

 

[TodayIsCaturday]

the western media, western politicians and the pro junta twitterati have used that pic to claim the DPR fighters were looting the belongings of the dead. In actuality what this man is saying is we want those bastards to see who they are shooting down. He was in fact quite respectful, as this video shows. A very different incident from what the western media are saying.

Ah yes, using dead children's belongings to film propaganda videos is so much more acceptable.

 

[2hats]

I guess if the banks who issued passenger credit/debit cards report subsequent card misuse that would be reasonably convincing evidence of looting.

According to this CNN report:

Cameron Dalziel was a father of two, a helicopter rescue pilot who had recently moved to Malaysia with his family.

He was on his way home after taking a training course when he was killed aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
...
Cameron's widow is keeping herself busy with unfortunate errands, like cancelling his credit cards, because, her brother says, "people are abusing it in the Ukraine."

 

[2hats]

Rather bizarrely, or is it interestingly, one of the separatist leaders appears to be advertising for lawyers with expertise in international relations:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Gubarev

 

[weltweit]

Tony Abbott has supplied 50 Australian Police staff to control the crash site, at the moment they are in London, en route, a deal has to be done to allow them to deploy.

 

[agricola]

because they are in a country thats virtually skint and fighters run on very expensive fuel, and can also be shot down .And it doesnt take much effort to just park one of your 60 systems in a feild and switch it on, unlike having your fighters patrol up and down constantly .

Why would they be letting their own transport and ground attack aircraft fly in the area unprotected if they honestly thought there was a chance of air interception? More to the point, why would they let their own transport and ground attack aircraft fly in the area if they were going to put a SAM system (without any command and control facilities that could determine what it is they were firing at) there?

because they are at war and have to use those craft to attack the population on the ground. And right up to the very day this incident occured they were using their shooting down as the basis to go to the UN and insist the international community take action against Russia for shooting down its aircraft. The Thursday press conference were they claimed the rebels were incapable of shooting them down was a prelude to the case they were due to present at the UN on Friday seeking international condemnation and further sanctions against Russia. Their case on Thursday morning was very different from Thursday afternoon . So their claims of having evidence immediately afterwards need viewing with very strong scepticism.

i) they have brought back into service most of their MiG-29s and have been using them in this crisis:



ii) as you acknowledge later on, they have been using other aircraft in their inventory to conduct airstrikes and fly transport missions - which would tend to suggest that "very expensive fuel" is not an issue when it comes to deploying aircraft

iii) it takes a lot of effort to take a SAM system several miles into enemy-held territory, set it up, protect it, fire it and then bring it back without anyone noticing; certainly more effort than would be required to just have fighters up in the air responding to directions from the ground.

iv) the difference between their statements over Thursday is not the damning indictment that you think it is; its quite plausible that they had no idea that the rebels had access to SAM of that quality until someone fired one and their / the Yanks signals intelligence people were able to pick it up.

 

[pocketscience]

I watched that press conference - looked like they had gone with the Strangelove 'war room set' theme.

Was intriguing: they seemed to want to put forward several contradictory ideas which even their own radar data refuted. The fighter they identified (Su-25) and the armament it carries aren't up to the task they are suggesting it carried out (and not consistent with the physical evidence thus far) - even if we now pretend it can reach 30kft as per the 'as if by magic' change to the spec on the relevant wikipedia page shortly after the press conference (and contradicting the manufacturer's own data). No prizes for guessing who that edit's attributed to.

Their radar data has the (assumed) Su-25 only popping up briefly after the event, not shadowing MH17.

Then in the same media event they present some optical satellite imagery of what they said were Ukrainian operated BUK missile launchers. Supposedly in the incident area, though that's not very clear, much like the imagery itself.

So I can't work out whether their thesis is that the Ukrainian air force shot it down air-to-air, or the Ukrainians tricked separatists in to shooting it down, or a Ukrainian SAM shot it down.

(Their subsequent discussion of the US IMINT data seemed to highlight a complete lack of understanding of the systems involved, well that clearly in the public domain, and orbital mechanics, which is more than a little odd unless the Russian military is populated with conspiraloons ).

Wouldn't the Ukrainian Gov be able to refute the claim that there was an Su-25 in the vicinity with the ATC data?

eta, just read that the government has resigned.
Just hope there's someone left in Kiev to cooperate with the investigators

 

[elbows]

Under the system in Ukraine, such a resignation does not mean they automatically leave their posts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/w...liament-takes-step-toward-elections.html?_r=0

Under Ukrainian law, the prime minister and the rest of the cabinet can resign and continue to work until a replacement government is chosen. Such a situation occurred this year when Mr. Yanukovych dismissed his government in a bid to quell the street protests that ultimately removed him from office.

The process of replacing Parliament will take several months, and Mr. Poroshenko urged lawmakers to work productively in the meantime. “The withdrawal of members from the coalition should not paralyze the work of Parliament,” he said. Mr. Poroshenko cited the need to adopt budget amendments, including financing for the military, as well as steps needed to comply with demands of international creditors who helped save Ukraine from default this year.

“I urged all members of Parliament to work responsibly,” Mr. Poroshenko said, “with the knowledge that Ukraine is now fighting for the sovereignty, territorial integrity, for the very existence of our country, for the future of the Ukrainian people.”

The parliamentary elections will probably be held in late October or early November, a potentially ambitious timetable even if the military operation ends soon, given the deep damage to infrastructure and the displacement of citizens who fled eastern Ukraine to escape the fighting.

 

[2hats]

Wouldn't the Ukrainian Gov be able to refute the claim that there was an Su-25 in the vicinity with the ATC data?

Not necessarily. You would need primary radar to track a fighter (the Russian radar presentation was reported as using data from a unified primary and secondary radar system, perhaps civilian plus military data). Additionally, targets would only be visible if they are above the local radar horizon.

Since NATO probably had AWACS up along the Romanian border at the time and extensive ELINT coverage of the area it is quite likely that they (or the DIA) know what was and wasn't in the air anyway.

 

[weltweit]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28478565

Dutch PM says who ever pushed the button won't escape justice.
I don't think he has quite realised that it was probably an error rather than a deliberate act.

 

[existentialist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28478565

Dutch PM says who ever pushed the button won't escape justice.
I don't think he has quite realised that it was probably an error rather than a deliberate act.

I don't suppose that detail has escaped him.

I think it is simply that he is saying the kind of thing that politicians are expected to say in these situations: his people need to feel that, in the absence of their having been protected from this atrocity, their government is at least attempting to secure justice for them, no matter how futile that goal may be.

 

[laptop]

Dutch PM says who ever pushed the button won't escape justice.
I don't think he has quite realised that it was probably an error rather than a deliberate act.

But 289 sentences for manslaughter start to add up.

What he may have failed to realise is the likelihood that whoever it was is already dead.

 

[weltweit]

New MH17 debris found in woods
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28490632

 

[2hats]

New MH17 debris found in woods
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28490632

That's the starboard side running back from the forward door. Possibly exhibits signs of failure under stress below the door ie point of separation of (what was left of) the cockpit plus forward section of the business class cabin, both of which appear to have detached and fallen west of the main impact site.

It doesn't look like it shows much sign of fragmentation damage which is consistent with the thesis that the warhead detonated slightly ahead of the cockpit, just above the centreline and on the port side as per the fragmentation damage exhibited by various cockpit debris (in particular around the cockpit windows, parts of the flight deck display system and flight deck floor). Such a scenario is consistent with the suggested flight profile of the 9M38 to a high altitude target: namely gain altitude and then trade that for velocity and range ie will tend to approach a high flying, non-evading target from above (would also minimise susceptibility to counter fire during the initial boost one would guess).

 

[Casually Red]

i) they have brought back into service most of their MiG-29s and have been using them in this crisis:



ii) as you acknowledge later on, they have been using other aircraft in their inventory to conduct airstrikes and fly transport missions - which would tend to suggest that "very expensive fuel" is not an issue when it comes to deploying aircraft

iii) it takes a lot of effort to take a SAM system several miles into enemy-held territory, set it up, protect it, fire it and then bring it back without anyone noticing; certainly more effort than would be required to just have fighters up in the air responding to directions from the ground.

iv) the difference between their statements over Thursday is not the damning indictment that you think it is; its quite plausible that they had no idea that the rebels had access to SAM of that quality until someone fired one and their / the Yanks signals intelligence people were able to pick it up.

first of all they were noticed, both on Russian satellite photographs and on Radar . Russia has pretty good signal intelligence as well and their radars were going like fuck . And unlike the US practice of Donald Rumsfeldisms..we know trust us..from anonymous sources..this data is being stood over by named ministry figures and being sent to the Dutch government for proper scrutiny .
Secondly the definition of enemy held territory is a complete misnomer . For example the junta forces are attacking in strength just a few kms outside Donetsk despite the supposed front line being 100kms behind them. . Theyre all over the entire Donetsk Lugansk districts . There aren't any real conventional frontlines in most places. Theyre moving about all over the place.

 

[Casually Red]

Not necessarily. You would need primary radar to track a fighter (the Russian radar presentation was reported as using data from a unified primary and secondary radar system, perhaps civilian plus military data). Additionally, targets would only be visible if they are above the local radar horizon.

Since NATO probably had AWACS up along the Romanian border at the time and extensive ELINT coverage of the area it is quite likely that they (or the DIA) know what was and wasn't in the air anyway.

so they'll be releasing their data any day now then ? or will it be more anonymous Rumsfeldisms and some shite up on Twitter ? which is basically the entire US and Brit case against the DPR fighters and Russia in general thus far.

 

[Casually Red]

Wouldn't the Ukrainian Gov be able to refute the claim that there was an Su-25 in the vicinity with the ATC data?

eta, just read that the government has resigned.
Just hope there's someone left in Kiev to cooperate with the investigators

they haven't released any data despite the demand from Russia they account for this aircraft as well as the eyewitnesses on the ground who claimed they saw it circling the site immediately afterwards . Interviews the BBC have now deleted from their website.

 

[2hats]

so they'll be releasing their data any day now then ? or will it be more anonymous Rumsfeldisms and some shite up on Twitter ? which is basically the entire US and Brit case against the DPR fighters and Russia in general thus far.

I doubt it. Do you really think they are stupid enough to be goaded into exposing the details of what their systems are capable of/what assets they have trained on Ukraine/western Russia in response to a comedy presentation by the Russian Ministry of Defence?

 

[2hats]

this data is being stood over by named ministry figures and being sent to the Dutch government for proper scrutiny

Yes. Judging from the consistency of their presentation, I agree - I hope they do send it to someone who is qualified to interpret the radar paints.

It needs someone to scrutinise the raw data properly because it's pretty evident that they need help understanding their own air traffic management system.

 

[2hats]

CBS are reporting that, according to an European air safety official, the black box data is consistent with decompression following missile strike.

 

[elbows]

I haven't had much time of late to watch or read BBC reports on this. Is the following article far more reserved when it comes to playing the blame game for propaganda purposes than many?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28532525

Security officials in Ukraine say the downed Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine suffered an explosive loss of pressure after it was punctured by shrapnel from a missile.

They say the information came from the plane's flight data recorders, which are being analysed by British experts.

However, it remains unclear who fired a missile, with pro-Russia rebels and Ukraine blaming each other.

In the end, experts will need more than the black boxes to work out what happened. They'll need to see the wreckage, the bodies and the American satellite data which the US says shows a missile was fired from rebel territory.

It's also worth remembering, even if all the black box data appears to tally with a missile strike, it won't tell us who fired it. Both sides in this conflict possess the same weapon.

 

[stowpirate]

BP puts profit before human life ? Good news if BP lose a few billion in dealings in Russia.

http://news.sky.com/story/1309294/bp-warns-of-impact-of-sanctions-on-russia

 

[2hats]

The Dutch Safety Board, Onderzoeksraad Voor Veiligheid (OVV), are the crash investigation lead (as requested by the Ukrainian NBAAI). Their reports are being published here (in English):

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014

The investigation team comprises representatives from Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Germany, Russia, the US and the UK air accident investigation authorities plus additional ICAO members.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Comments?

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wiss...lysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

 

[elbows]

Comments?

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wiss...lysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

Far too reliant on photo analysis that claims something very specific that I cannot possibly confirm myself with those photos and my own level of knowledge. I would need to hear the analysis of an expert in that field that I trusted to place much faith in it, and even then they would have to work very hard to prove their theory to me if their theory managed to narrow down the possible weapon involved down to one neat answer that also allowed the perpetrating side to be identified.

I'm used to being able to debunk all the image-based quackery that the net era brings so easily to us, and savouring those rarer moments where open communities of people manage to pool their knowledge and use their analytical abilities to actually correctly provide a detailed context and description of some important photo or video that is relevant to current events. So its frustrating to look at these plane photos and know that I stand no chance of being able to do the useful analysis on them myself, I don't know enough about ballistics, explosions and the patterns of damage they leave.

Plus a quick search of the net and clicking on just two pages, I got two other different theories about what these photos clearly showed.

 

[2hats]

Other than the 'Su-25 on radar' and 'Carlos the Spanish air traffic controller' have been debunked?

His thesis would appear to be that a Su-25 would climb beyond its service ceiling, be required to remain invisible to radar and engage the target head on at a combined speed of something like 1500 km/h with cannons? Apparently twice?

The accident investigators should be able to nail what hit it from the fragmentation and chemical analysis of the explosive residue on the aircraft skin.

 

[pocketscience]

Other than the 'Su-25 on radar' and 'Carlos the Spanish air traffic controller' have been debunked?

Really? I've been wondering what happened to him but hadn't noticed anything conclusive of it being debunked or confirmed. What's the debunking story?

 

[pocketscience]

Comments?

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wiss...lysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

The last person you'd expect to stick their neck out with such a bold claim would be a Lufthansa pilot.
But reading the biog of him in german from that site, he's also written 2 books; "Globalised Bankrobbery" and "The Germans, The English and The Jews in the 20th Century" …I'd guess he's looking for some publicity with such an article