Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[treelover]

In related supposition; I bet the balaclava clad drunk who hit the launch switch is now a charred and bullet ridden pile of meat in a ditch somewhere in Russia.

You have such a way with words, callousness comes with the territory I suppose, though at least he would be killed at close quarters, not five thousand feet, or something...

 

[2hats]

And that this may have been an attempt to kill Putin. I wonder about that. Who would gain most?

Putin's own flight planners are incompetent enough to route his personal aircraft across a conflict zone he has direct involvement in? Where the same authorities claim hostile SAM missile batteries are operational?

Actually a Putin spokesperson already countered that one (even RT reported it) pointing out that the presidential aircraft hasn't flown over Ukraine for some time.

A lot easier to offer him a 210Po cuppa surely?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

An attempt to kill Putin with a planeload of corpses, all with brand new Facebook pages and passports, perhaps?

They should at least put some effort into these loony scenarios: there will be airport security footage of live people getting onto the plane, pilots etc.

But I suppose................all that could be faked!

This can be like the Ukrainian 911: conspiracy ground zero. Let's just hope and pray that this situation doesn't lead to a useless and irrational war, like 911 did.

 

[MAD-T-REX]

Don't forget that Ukraine or NATO assassinating Putin would be a politically insane move.

Really, 'Plot against are prez' is the most bonkers spin yet.

 

[laptop]

And that this may have been an attempt to kill Putin. I wonder about that. Who would gain most?

Days ago, the story was that Putin was flying over Ukraine on his way back from Moscow.

It came with a photo of a plane.

Plane-spotters immediately pointed to a photo on Putin's own website of him getting onto a completely different plane in Rio

 

[laptop]

An attempt to kill Putin with a planeload of corpses, all with brand new Facebook pages and passports, perhaps?

Spoiler: Do not read if you've not seen a well-known BBC detective series

(C) Steven Moffat as scriptwriter of the BBC Sherlock - A Scandal in Belgravia

 

[2hats]

Some interesting comments from Pravda about the shapes of the impacts in the fuselage.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/19-07-2014/128094-nato_putin-0/

Shrapnel consistent with a number of warheads including the SA-11 frag HE (according to Jane's). Sampling of the aircraft skin and any embedded shrapnel will help determine particularly as stock missile and warhead samples are available to the investigators.

They should probably have checked their copy with the Russian Defence Ministry though and made sure it wasn't going to contradict their statements and evidence presented Monday (multiple jets MIG-29/Su-27 versus single Su-25). The article also conveniently overlooks the fact that Aeroflot and Rossiya (to name but two, there were plenty of Russian charter flights to/from eg Cyprus/Egypt/Eilat doing likewise) were routing through the same area for weeks before and on the day.

 

[2hats]

Following up investigation of the potential launch site described in post 652 a Telegraph reporter went to the fields identified and located fresh (according to the farmer) scorch marks in an adjacent field consistent with the above analysis plus some odd pieces of plastic fragments. Wrong time of year for crop burning.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...es-which-may-lead-to-missile-launch-site.html

 

[2hats]

Two military jets shot down in Ukraine CNN reporting.

 

[belboid]

Two military jets shot down in Ukraine CNN reporting.

yup, Ukrainian government confirmed it, according to the beeb.

This ones gonna run and run

 

[DotCommunist]

with that escalation yep.

Obama was said to be disappointed at europes reluctance on the sanctions front. Barack doesn't have to live next door to and buy fuel from the russians though, so he can give it the biggun with impunity

 

[belboid]

His disappointment is a tad hypocritical considering yankee intelligence said they couldn't find any evidence of direct Russian involvement in the downing

 

[gosub]

His disappointment is a tad hypocritical considering yankee intelligence said they couldn't find any evidence of direct Russian involvement in the downing

you'd rather they manufacture some? Kind of glad, we can't afford to do anything and we can't afford to turn a blind eye.

 

[2hats]

Another aspect of the Russian Ministry of Defence presentation that doesn't stack up…

They describe (illustrated in the slide from their presentation below) MH17 proceeding along W633 then deviating from L69 near Donetsk and to the NW of waypoint ABOLA:

However both the flightplan:

FPL-MAS17-IS -B772/H-SDFGHIJ3J5M1RWXY/LB1D1 -EHAM1000 -N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350 L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750 ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH A464 DAKUS DCT -WMKK1137 WMSA WMKP -EET/EDGG0017 EDWW0023 EDUU0036 EPWW0052 UKLV0135 UKBV0153 UKDV0225 URRV0255 UATT0347 UTAK0411 UTAA0432 UTAV0507 OAKX0518 OPLR0601 OPKR0616 VIDF0631 VABF0725 VECF0747 VYYF0926 VOMF0930 VTBB1013 WMFC1051 REG/9MMRD PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S2 SEL/QREJ DOF/140717 RMK/ACASII EQUIPPED

and ADS-B data:



clearly indicate progression along L980 from BEMBI to PEKIT to TAMAK (which MH17 never reached, of course).

Perhaps they should provide the radar data to someone who is capable of interpreting it?

 

[belboid]

you'd rather they manufacture some? Kind of glad, we can't afford to do anything and we can't afford to turn a blind eye.

What are you on about?

My point is that if they can't find any evidence of direct Russian involvement, then it is hypocritical to go demanding extra sanctions - which would only (possibly) be valid if there were evidence of direct Russian involvement.

 

[existentialist]

Don't forget that Ukraine or NATO assassinating Putin would be a politically insane move.

Really, 'Plot against are prez' is the most bonkers spin yet.

But if you look at the rich history of Soviet propaganda, the pattern seems to be to spew out a range of varyingly ludicrous stories, with some so ludicrous as to be unbelievable - this, however, makes less unbelievable but still highly dubious versions appear MORE believable by comparison.

 

[treelover]

Heartbreaking but very very moving, I think they are calling for no 'revenge' as well.

I

 

[Gingerman]

Heartbreaking but very very moving, I think they are calling for no 'revenge' as well.

I

Jesus that's so sad and moving

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

An attempt to kill Putin with a planeload of corpses, all with brand new Facebook pages and passports, perhaps?

They should at least put some effort into these loony scenarios: there will be airport security footage of live people getting onto the plane, pilots etc.

But I suppose................all that could be faked!

This can be like the Ukrainian 911: conspiracy ground zero. Let's just hope and pray that this situation doesn't lead to a useless and irrational war, like 911 did.

It does sound like they've stolen wholesale from 9/11 conspiracy theories. The least they could do is be a bit original.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Heartbreaking but very very moving, I think they are calling for no 'revenge' as well.

I

Christ.

I know for a fact if we were in that situation Frau Bahn and I would be off Beachy Head within hours.

 

[seventh bullet]

But if you look at the rich history of Soviet propaganda, the pattern seems to be to spew out a range of varyingly ludicrous stories, with some so ludicrous as to be unbelievable - this, however, makes less unbelievable but still highly dubious versions appear MORE believable by comparison.

Do you have any examples of this being done effectively in the Soviet Union?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

with that escalation yep.

Obama was said to be disappointed at europes reluctance on the sanctions front. Barack doesn't have to live next door to and buy fuel from the russians though, so he can give it the biggun with impunity

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/eu-plans-further-sanctions-russia-putin-mh17

 

[pocketscience]

Update from Robert Parry on that article of his I posted earler in the week:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/

 

[dylanredefined]

Update from Robert Parry on that article of his I posted earler in the week:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/

Considering I have seen soldiers in old British uniforms both temperate and desert pattern and a variety of other countries patterns not exactly conclusive
one way or the other.

 

[2hats]

'Whitehall sources' suggest the MH17 crash site has been tampered with including the placing of other plane parts at the scene.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28439862

 

[pocketscience]

Considering I have seen soldiers in old British uniforms both temperate and desert pattern and a variety of other countries patterns not exactly conclusive
one way or the other.

That's exactly the point he's making. There is nothing conclusive currently, yet the tone of the west's media and politicians would have the public believe otherwise.

That requires a serious and impartial investigation, but what the Obama administration and most of the mainstream U.S. news media have delivered so far is another example of “information warfare,” assembling a case to make an adversary look bad regardless of the actual evidence — and then marginalizing any dissents to the desired conclusion.

That was exactly the “group think” that led the United States into the disastrous invasion of Iraq – and it appears that few if any lesson were learned

 

[belboid]

Update from Robert Parry on that article of his I posted earler in the week:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/

it's not really much of an update. The possibility that it was fired by a former member of the Ukrainian army that had gone over to the separatists has always been out there. The LA Times article in no way backs up the (single, unnamed, sourced) claim that there are picturs of it being fired by people in Ukrainian army uniforms.

 

[pocketscience]

it's not really much of an update. The possibility that it was fired by a former member of the Ukrainian army that had gone over to the separatists has always been out there. The LA Times article in no way backs up the (single, unnamed, sourced) claim that there are picturs of it being fired by people in Ukrainian army uniforms.

tbf defector doesnt necessarily mean they've joined the pro russian seperatiats.
What the MSM again has neglected to pick up on are the "Self Organised groups" who's existance was confirmed by Parubiy's (as if him being in charge aint enough to be setting off alarm bells) spokesman when the Ukrainian gov came under pressure for their continued bombing in Donetsk just as the malaysian delegation were arriving to collect the flight recorders.
Basically, the government has admitted that it's lost control of its fighters in the region.

Adding to the sense of chaos, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's national security council in Kiev, denied that the Ukrainian army was responsible for explosions in central Donetsk but said small groups of partisans could be engaging the rebels.

"We have strict orders not to use air strikes and artillery in the city. If there is fighting in the city, we have information that there is a small self-organised group who are fighting with the terrorists," he said.
....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-black-boxes-handed-over-pro-russia-rebels
So now the clusterfuck has spawned pro ukrainian seperatists too...

 

[pocketscience]

What's the level of difficulty in operating one of the BUK systems?
I'd imagine a fair bit of trainings needed to hit a target at 33000ft. Wouldn't some kind of aircraft identification be involved in that training?

 

[weltweit]

What's the level of difficulty in operating one of the BUK systems?
I'd imagine a fair bit of trainings needed to hit a target at 33000ft. Wouldn't some kind of aircraft identification be involved in that training?

This is a video about the BUK SAM system