Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[laptop]

Yeah, he's really fucked off the families who have been led to believe that their loved ones didn't suffer.
Some are suing: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/10/mh17_victims_families_plan_leg.php

So... they're (muttering about) suing the state because the Minister accidentally exploded a comforting myth?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

There are a few similarities but many (significant) differences. Suffice it to say a number of people will have survived the initial event (far more likely as one moves towards the rear of the cabin) and would be aware things had gone horribly wrong (this was also true for PanAm 103, which is probably a better example). If they were lucky they passed out but even from 30kft it's not beyond the bounds of possibility of being conscious all the way down (or even regaining consciousness at lower altitude).

Pretty grim.

 

[2hats]

Pretty grim.

To be honest I can imagine that it's probably far more grim than that but let's not go there. In the absence of a full analysis of the remains and aircraft components it doesn't really add much to knowledge of this particular event anyway.

 

[2hats]

Der Spiegel reports that the BND has briefed a Bundestag committee that they have concluded that MH17 was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.

After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...an-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

 

[butchersapron]

I knew it was the jews/Ukrainians. Only they could conclude this.

Ta.

 

[likesfish]

Thing is only ukrainain forces were using aircraft and helicopters rebels didnt have any and the russians couldnt plausibly deny sending air strikes in.
Sams yes and with a vast number of consripts rebels could scrounge up a buk crew espcially after a bombing raid. Way the soviets worked you'd drill on one weapon system or part of of one weapon system and a missile system doesnt take fitness or a high level of coordination. You just do your part and the rocket goes up.
Operators are probably all dead in a ditch by now they assumed as did everybody that there were no neutral planes in the sky above a war zone.

 

[butchersapron]

bellincgat released an open sourced report last night - lots for people to go through:

Origin of the Separatists’ Buk: A Bellingcat Investigation

This report analyses evidence from open sources, in particular social media, relating to the Buk missile launcher filmed and photographed in eastern Ukraine on July 17th that many have linked to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

While other open source information is available on other aspects of the downing of MH17, the Bellingcat MH17 investigation team believes that this particular investigation provides solid information about the origin and movements of the Buk filmed and photographed on July 17th. The Bellingcat MH17 investigation team also believes that many of the unresolved questions about the downing of MH17 will be answered by the official investigation, and our investigation was made possible by the examination of open source material overlooked by other organisations.

 

[2hats]

The Dutch Safety Board reports that it has reached agreement over recovery of the wreckage and hopes to undertake the process within the next couple of weeks:

The Dutch Safety Board has commissioned the recovery and transportation to the
Netherlands of wreckage from flight MH17. As part of the investigation into the cause
and progress of the crash, the Dutch Safety Board intends to reconstruct a section of
the aircraft.

Last week more remains were recovered and flown back to the Netherlands.

 

[Casually Red]

Thing is only ukrainain forces were using aircraft and helicopters rebels didnt have any and the russians couldnt plausibly deny sending air strikes in.
Sams yes and with a vast number of consripts rebels could scrounge up a buk crew espcially after a bombing raid. Way the soviets worked you'd drill on one weapon system or part of of one weapon system and a missile system doesnt take fitness or a high level of coordination. You just do your part and the rocket goes up.
Operators are probably all dead in a ditch by now they assumed as did everybody that there were no neutral planes in the sky above a war zone.

theres no evidence the rebel possessed BUKs . On the very day of the crash...hours before it.. the Banderists were having a press conference explicitly saying they didnt as they were going to the UN to accuse Russian jets of operating in Ukraine. Barely 2 hours later theyre shouting they have evidence the rebel had BUKs . Making it up as they go long .

ffs

Theye even accused Russian forces of using nuclear weapons against their troops at one of the airports.

 

[butchersapron]

That bellingcat investigation concludes:

It is the opinion of the Bellingcat MH17 investigation team that there is undeniable evidence that separatists in Ukraine were in control of a Buk missile launcher on July 17th and transported it from Donetsk to Snizhne on a transporter. The Buk missile launcher was unloaded in Snizhne approximately three hours before the downing of MH17 and was later filmed minus one missile driving through separatist-controlled Luhansk.

The Bellingcat MH17 investigation team also believes the same Buk was part of a convoy travelling from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade in Kursk to near the Ukrainian border as part of a training exercise between June 22nd and July 25th, with elements of the convoy separating from the main convoy at some point during that period, including the Buk missile launcher filmed in Ukraine on July 17th. There is strong evidence indicating that the Russian military provided separatists in eastern Ukraine with the Buk missile launcher filmed and photographed in eastern Ukraine on July 17th.

I think taking their work down is going to involves a wee bit more than the above post.

 

[Casually Red]

Der Spiegel reports that the BND has briefed a Bundestag committee that they have concluded that MH17 was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.


http://www.spiegel.de/international...an-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

a month ago...not a dicky bird since . Damning as fuck ...while admitting the photos supplied by Kiev hve been doctored and without even examining the Russian data. Just as damning as their evidence that made the same definitive conclusion in Ghouta. a joke .

 

[Casually Red]

Thing is only ukrainain forces were using aircraft and helicopters rebels didnt have any and the russians couldnt plausibly deny sending air strikes in.
Sams yes and with a vast number of consripts rebels could scrounge up a buk crew espcially after a bombing raid. Way the soviets worked you'd drill on one weapon system or part of of one weapon system and a missile system doesnt take fitness or a high level of coordination. You just do your part and the rocket goes up.
Operators are probably all dead in a ditch by now they assumed as did everybody that there were no neutral planes in the sky above a war zone.

jut for interests sake...how loud a bang do you reckon a Buk makes when launched ... a pretty massive one Id imagine that could be heard miles away . and on a clear still summer day how long afterwards do you reckon its pretty massive curving vapour trail ...ten to 15 mile long...would be visible to absolutely everyone for many miles around . To a civilian population whove regularly taken footage of aircraft either attacking or being shot down, artillery exchange etc and regularly uploading to them to the net .

not only would they all have had to have had collective blindness deafness and breakdown of their cameras on this occasion over a very large radius , but on all the other occasions the rebels must have been using these weapons.... that nobody can prove they even possessed much less fired . Is it the case now this was their first and last shot too . Because theres no proof they had them or fired them before this , much less during this incident . No eyewitnesses or footage of any previous BUK launches either ..none . and Kiev was explicitly saying they didnt have them that very afternoon .

and what civilian witnesses on the ground have repeatedly said is they saw a military jet in the proximity of this plane just before it came down . BBC even interviewed them and then pulled the broadcast off the net later .Didnt fit the narrative..simple as . and that fucking plane is still lying in bits in those fields. Theyve fuck all interest in examining it .

 

[Casually Red]

please someone explain to me how nobody spots these things , especially when fired.

 

[Casually Red]

heres the BBC report they pulled after the beeb crapped themselves when local eyewitnessess said the wrong things and the Kiev photo were shown up as unreliable. Jokers.



and a good documentary here

 

[rekil]

Wake up sheeple. Check out some of the other videos on that first channel.

 

[DotCommunist]

thanks for the anti semite spam then CR

 

[dylanredefined]

please someone explain to me how nobody spots these things , especially when fired.

Because the plane was several km in the air when the missile was launched and the pilots were probably chatting about holidays rather than expecting to get shot at. Even if they had seen it little they could do. Airliners are not routinely equipped with defensive countermeasures and not really able to do the high g manoeuvres you need to dodge one of these things.

 

[2hats]

jut for interests sake...how loud a bang do you reckon a Buk makes when launched ... a pretty massive one Id imagine that could be heard miles away . and on a clear still summer day how long afterwards do you reckon its pretty massive curving vapour trail ...ten to 15 mile long...would be visible to absolutely everyone for many miles around .

You imagine incorrectly then. It doesn't make any bang at all when launched (unless the rocket motors fail). A small medium range rocket of few hundred kg isn't as loud as you doubtless think it is (unless you are standing within a few hundred yards of the TEL). It's not going to be heard from more than a couple of miles away in the immediate vicinity of the launch site (motor noise at altitude is going to be refracted away from and greatly attenuated for potential ground observers). As it (initially) accelerates to and through the transonic regime, without direct visual identification by trained observers the sound can easily be mistaken for a military aircraft. The vast majority of the public (any public) don't have much of a clue what they are looking at in the sky; fail to consider basic geometries, apparent angular velocities, mis-estimating range and speed, before even considering the physics of what is and isn't possible (see the Icke forums for examples). The engagement profile rapidly takes it away from local observers (this is a surface to air weapon, not surface to surface), close to the vertical in order to maximise range, reach optimum target interception speed, minimise chance of interception itself. These factors work against it being readily observed.

Aside from that, it was predominately cloudy that afternoon in that area:



so once the rocket passed through the cloud base (METARs report cloud decks at 700, 1500, 3300, 10000 feet) it would be significantly harder to follow (though due to the time delay in the sound arriving at the observer most would be unable to locate the rocket prior to obscuration anyway); it's not like potential observers (other than those responsible) would be anticipating a launch and prepared to watch it. The rocket and subsequent plume would have been greatly obscured within about 5 seconds (or less) of the launch which means everyone a mile or more away would have had great difficulty spotting it once they were alerted by any sounds (it would be shrouded in cloud before they heard it). The launch site identified by several sources has the nearest (sparsely) populated village over a mile away.

A rocket plume was photographed in the vicinity of the launch site, at low level, after the event:

Note that the portion of sky in that photo is some 50-100 miles away out over Russia where the cloud cover was reported as broken with a base of around 4000 feet closer to the border, and clear much further along the line of sight (consistent with METARs and Meteosat 7 IODC) allowing for scattering.


(red arrow launch/crash area, blue ellipse distant clearer sky).

Relevant METARs:

METAR UKDE 171430Z 07006G13MPS 010V120 9999 BKN033 BKN100 27/16 Q1010 02210370 TEMPO VRB10G15MPS 2100 -TSRAGR SQ BKN007 BKN015CB=
METAR URRR 171430Z 06005MPS 9999 FEW040CB BKN100 32/10 Q1008 04CLRD70 NOSIG=
METAR URWI 171400Z 11009G14MPS CAVOK 37/02 Q1008 NOSIG RMK SC065=
METAR URWW 171430Z 06002MPS 020V120 CAVOK 35/01 Q1011 NOSIG RMK SC070=

e2a: I see the RT video itself (6m30s in) provides one truth - it clearly illustrates the extensive degree of cloud cover in the area at the time - the sky wasn't clear at all.

 

[Casually Red]

Because the plane was several km in the air when the missile was launched and the pilots were probably chatting about holidays rather than expecting to get shot at. Even if they had seen it little they could do. Airliners are not routinely equipped with defensive countermeasures and not really able to do the high g manoeuvres you need to dodge one of these things.

im not talking about dead pilots...im talking about the many thousands of live people who live there on the ground....some of whom the BBC interviewed but then censored when they said they neither saw nor heard a missile launched but did see a military jet beside the plane .

 

[butchersapron]

Here's a mapbox presentation of the bellingcat's investigations suggested buk movements.

 

[likesfish]

Because after the intial lauch its a small dot moving very fast

 

[dylanredefined]

im not talking about dead pilots...im talking about the many thousands of live people who live there on the ground....some of whom the BBC interviewed but then censored when they said they neither saw nor heard a missile launched but did see a military jet beside the plane .

my mistake sorry

 

[Dogsauce]

and what civilian witnesses on the ground have repeatedly said is they saw a military jet in the proximity of this plane just before it came down . BBC even interviewed them and then pulled the broadcast off the net later .Didnt fit the narrative..simple as .

At 35000ft? on a cloudy day?

Um, OK.

 

[Casually Red]

e2a: I see the RT video itself (6m30s in) provides one truth - it clearly illustrates the extensive degree of cloud cover in the area at the time - the sky wasn't clear at all.

and yet youve gone and posted a photo purporting to be the plume of a rocket which shows a nice clear blue sky .

what you curiously...not.. neglected to tell the class was that photo was supplied by the Kiev military . and in your earlier missive apportioning blame the BND admitted that was a fake .


BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this


first you post and Quote an article that claims the photos are fake...then in the next breath you go and post a photo from the same people and claim its genuine..totally contradicting yourself ...and its clear to see in the photo that rocket wa ....oops..oh noes..it was really really cloudy and nobody could see anything..honest guv

that spam and youre spamming .


tell you what ..why not post another few paragraphs of long winded technical waffle and jargon and sourceless assertions while your at it . Helps to make the thing sound more authoritative and scientifically proven..when its no such thing . Much like some bloke in an advert donning a lab coat and flogging washing powder to agog housewives .

Get your propaganda in line basically .

 

[Casually Red]

thanks for the anti semite spam then CR

away and fuck yourself you sad miserable twat

 

[Casually Red]

You imagine incorrectly then. It doesn't make any bang at all when launched .

bollocks...45 seconds in...massive big fuck off bang .




say some more big words professor

 

[2hats]

bollocks...45 seconds in...massive big fuck off bang .

Nope. No bang there. Try consulting a dictionary.

 

[butchersapron]

bollocks...45 seconds in...massive big fuck off bang .

No there ain't.

 

[Idris2002]

away and fuck yourself you sad miserable twat

Searing political critique.

 

[Casually Red]

Wake up sheeple. Check out some of the other videos on that first channel.

the video was the BBCs report .whoever posts a coy of it on youtube is completely irrelevant to both it and its subject matter .. Either address that or fuck off and stop deflecting and derailing . You dreary arsehole . .