Opps. Corrected.
Amazon Watch Thread
- Thread starter Marty1
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
For the record, I disagree with points made on both sides of the preceding argument. Not just by you.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Sure in that particular example, but that's not how the vast majority of the economy actually operates. Most people make a living by exchanging significant chunks of their life in exchange for a wage or salary.
Nope, profits are important to stay competitive, and because everyone's trying to outdo each other, there is this constant pressure to extract more and more profit in order to remain competitive. It's this pressure which incentivises ripping off your customers, suppliers, and workers if you can get away with it. Because if you don't do it, someone else will to gain the advantage and start encroaching on your market share.
Because it demonstrates that capital is ultimately destructive without non-capital forces to reign it in. The state is a necessary survival mechanism for capital, but when capitalists are competing in a market they don't care if deregulation results in a disaster happening in decades to come, when they can just do it and make the money now.
Sure, there would still be rules and regulations governing industrial activity in a communist society, because there will always be rule-breakers of one kind or another. But capitalism's demand for constant profits and infinite growth on a finite planet creates perverse incentive structures (at least from the perspective of those who have to work for a living) that would not exist under other political economies.
It's profits that put one ahead in the competition, not "doing the right thing". In the society we live in, you can do a hell of a lot more with £50,000 than you can with 50,000 Good Boy Points.
I think as a species we can do a lot better than capitalism, and no that doesn't involve bringing back the Soviet Union or whatever strawman you might be thinking of. That's as daft as thinking that all anti-monarchist republicans want to bring back the First French Republic and its Reign of Terror.
You're right, I'd like it to be abolished. Just like how slavery should be.
Nope, I want them dissolved and their assets placed under democratic control.
If I was "one of them" I wouldn't be wasting my time arguing on a forum with someone who doesn't want to abolish capitalism and therefore isn't a threat to their interests.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
OK, but why is that? Is it because we live in a society in which someone who engages in corrupt behaviour stands to make a lot of money? Perverse incentives strike again.
So don't take the word of an individual. If the field has anything approaching a rigorous and self-correcting methodology such as scientific naturalism, you can look at the consensus.
Cutting out the non-experts is a useful heuristic that saves a lot of time, because there are a whole bunch of people out there making declarations about subjects about which they are unqualified. Your method has no quality control whatsoever.
... because power is centralised ... a point I keep making ... a point you keep ignoring.
Same things happen in socialism and communism. It's not just money that corrupts, but power also.
But I have to judge for myself that it's genuine consensus.
When it comes to my own interests, I'm the final arbiter of the truth and no one else.
You're simply being binary. I don't have to listen to every none expert, I merely refuse to rule out someone who isn't an expert.
Maybe we have different visions in our head as to how I would do things.
There's nothing wrong in reading the opinions of none experts as long as they back everything up with sources that involve experts or at least somehow point people in the right direction to credible facts, figures, studies involving experts etc.
When poltiics and ideologies get into it, I think it's fair to say, that everyone is guilty of dissmissing experts and studies that are off side with opposing views.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
His output has no quality control whatsoever and he epitomises the maxim that it is better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to pipe up and prove yourself one
Doesn't negate my point. Profit per se isn't harmful, so you if you believe there are situations in which it is, you need empathise the qualifiers, nuances and caveats.
But without it, we wouldn't have much in the way of innovation and fair pricing.
If you can't make profits, you have nothing to reinvest into the business, the business can't innovate or expand.
Also, you can't claim that profits reinvested into the business is theft, but taxation isn't theft. You want to have your cake and eat it.
You want the workers make money for those in the state, who rarely do anything creative other than come up with more ways to consolidate power and control society.
My case in point:
Unworkable. For example, who would get Amazon? Tell me how that would work.
What would you say to a working class family that has a few shares in Amazon?
You know where the ignore button is, but you just won't press it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you know where your brain is but you just won't use it
Your beef with me is a that I do. Stop lying. It doesn't suit you.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
this is really very stupid. taxes pay for things which are needed for society to function, things like schools, libraries, the nhs, rubbish collection. profits don't.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you don't know where your brain is? can't say i'm entirely surprised
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
I think you have just united urban.
They're also used to pay for things that are uneeded. Furthermore, let's get back to profits. Profits are good. Profits are healthy. It's not a dirty word.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
profits are neither good nor healthy. they should go to the wealth creators, not the fat pigs who own companies.
Whatever, Trevor ... do you have anything to say about Amazon?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it should be socialised as NoXion says and run under democratic control
There are millions of middle class woke cunts employed by the state doing non-jobs, all derived from stealing from wealth creators.
Hell, there's people out there employed soley for the purpose of cooking up new ways to steal wealth from wealth creators.
Please, stop being so fake as to dare suggest to me that you give a fuck about the bottom line in workers pay packets.
You don't.
Fairness comes first.
Oh right, yes of course. The devil is in the detail.
What exactly do you mean by "democratic control".
Because I find the word "control" way dirtier than you find the word "profit".
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think i do give a fuck about the bottom line in workers' pay packets. you don't, you've been bigging up profits which as anyone with an ounce of economic knowledge knows are stolen from workers, being the surplus value from their labour. you're out of your depth on this as you are on every other subject you post about
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Because it's irrelevant. Corruption happens whenever the conditions allow for it, regardless of whether they're centralised or decentralised. If some border guard is paid poorly enough and/or sufficiently under-supervised that taking bribes becomes a tempting proposition, then that has nothing to with centralisation vs decentralisation. A decentralised currency is not going to address the real material power possessed by corporations.
The solution for the equitable distribution of political power is democratisation, not decentralisation.
Obviously the final judgement will always be on you. But it's important how you reach it.
OK, but you haven't actually demonstrated that you do that. For example, this idea of yours that loads of people, whose medical histories you have no idea about, should be going on keto diets instead of taking insulin. You've supported that with nothing but your say-so.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
at the very least it should be run democratically by the workers as a collective
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
It does negate your point, because selling shit on Ebay is not how the vast majority of the economy operates.
People don't need the profit motive in order to invent new shit.
You can make profits, but what happens to them should be decided by the people who actually made them in the first place - the workers. Same thing with taxes, that's why having a democratic government is important.
Amazon would be no more, making the question of shares etc moot, and it's physical assets such as warehouses etc would be shared among the workers. It would be up to them to decide if they want to continue operating a warehouse, or if they want to do something else with it.
I haven't "bigged up" profits. I've defended the concept of profit.
I repeat.
I bought something off a friend for £20.00.
I sold it for £40.00 on ebay.
That's £20.00 profit. No workers involved.
We have to precise and specific when dealing with these matters.
Profit isn't the problem.
Now if you want to discuss certain business models in certain types of business that aren't in the interests of workers, then I'm all ears.
Let's even get on subject while we are at it.
Amazon. Remember them?
- Fulfillment centre pickers.
- Distrubution centre sorters.
- "Last mile" delivery drivers.
The fulfillment centre workers appear to be having a horrible time, with more need to make their jobs sustainable.
The distribution centre sorters don't seem to have as many problems, with many of them being part time or simply not having asperations to stay their very long.
The delivery drivers are all self employed and are working to a flexible business model that in my opinion can't be done any other way.
The fulfillment centre pickers, in my opinion need unionising and good luck to them with that. But one problem that would need addressing, is that a number of positions would have to be seasonal, like the post office.
I don't think the distribution centres should be unionised, because those jobs are a lot more simple and are done by workforce with a high staff turnover. No one wants those jobs long term and as I said, many are part time, done by people like students.
The delivery drivers are working with a budget that comes in depending on how much work there actually is. For example they are paid more during Prime promotion weeks and about 2 months over Christmas and New Year. There's loads of swings and roundabouts involved. The hours can be anti-social but the drivers have a lot more control over which days they work. Trust me, they wouldn't want a union involved, because permanent employment isn't possible. There's been loads of bad reports of how DSPs are only there to shield Amazon from the worker - that's simply not true. If Amazon were to employ drivers directly it would be nowhere near as effecient, people would order less, with less work.
Good luck getting that lot under "democractic control" whatever that is.
If you genuinely want something that is fairer on the workers, come up with an Amazon alternative that is decentralised in nature, with built in rules that ensures more of the money winds up in the hands of those who do actually do the work.
Right. Go and setup an Amazon alternative with your mates then.
There's nothing stopping you.
What you are proposing is that these wankers not those wankers profits from someone elses sweat.
Amazon is succesful because it's customer focused. Those who own it, make sure it's that way.
A change of ownership could change that, putting jobs at risk.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Fuck me. So if you had your own way, most large firms would in essence be shut down with their assets liquidated.
Because most workers INCLUDING ME would simply vote for a quick buck by being paid for liquidised assets, then fuck off to another job.
You're conflating a top down generalisation with individuals taking decisions.
No one is suggesting that someone who is under medical supervision, taking prescribed medicines, should suddenly stop taking those medicines just because "I said so" (when I didn't).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
interesting to see you describe workers as wankers
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't think they would vote like that tbh. have you a couple of examples of where people have done this: i think you're speaking out of your arse again
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