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paimei01 said:

Hey and that plane was flying on a straight course, with transponder on, and autopilot working, in South fucking Dakota mind you.

On the other hand the 911 hijackers deviated from course, switched off their plane's transponders, and were flying over the Eastern Seaboard of the US the busiest piece of air space on the planet.

How long did it take for the jets to Scramble in 1999? 80 minutes.

How long before the hijackers crashed or hit their targets on September 11th? Less than 80 minutes in every case.

So basically you're saying thats its suspicious that the airforce didn't respond even faster than the incident in '99 which was a best case scenario for a unresponsive plane.

Really? Numbnuts, Really?

If you want me to link to the exact NORAD timeline, I fucking will. But come up with some better shit than Payne Steward first.

Incidentally taking post Sept 11th examples is fucking retarded. Of course the US will react differently to a plane over DC post 911.

Finally, who exactly would you be satisfied with the buck stopping with? Bush? Cheney? Some NORAD radar operator?

On and actually fin-a-fucking-ly. Would you care to explain which "wargames" left the US undefended on 911?

EddyBlack said:
We have repeated ignored warnings at the very top level (albeit with hindsight.
To add insult to injury we seemingly have this government using the terror threat to scare and distract the media every time revelations of its negligence, incompetence, lies etc. come into the news

So the Bush administration are a bunch of lying deceitful cunts, who use the threat of terrorism as a puppet show to distract from other domestic and foreign policy failures. Gosh let me pick my fucking jaw up from the floor. Do you have another point Eddy? Or are you going to next demonstrate that the sky is blue? Or that puppies and kittens are fucking cute. Seriously Eddie what's your sodding point?
 
The FAA said air traffic controllers lost radio contact with the plane at 9:44 a.m.

Pentagon officials said the military began its pursuit of the ghostly civilian aircraft at 10:08 a.m

Its' not 80 minutes. On 9/11 there was not even a try by fighter planes to catch the hijackers.
So what if the transponder was shut down ? Do you think you are the first in the world to think about this, and in 2001 everybody said "oh no they shut down the transponder, now nobody can find them, we did not think about this !!"

http://www.deanhartwell.com/911Wargames.htm#_ednref2
But Vice President Cheney stated to Tim Russert on Meet the Press September 16, 2001, “the toughest decision was this question of whether we [the White House] would intercept incoming aircraft.”[3] He gave viewers the distinct impression that intercepting meant shooting down aircraft and that this decision was made at the Presidential level.
Cheney is a liar. What about the story from 1999 ? Intercepting does not mean shooting down, and in 199 it was default procedure

http://web.archive.org/web/20020219050126/http://www.newhouse.com/archive/story1a012802.html
6 A.M.: WAR GAMES

Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins figured it would be a long day.

Sept. 11 was Day II of "Vigilant Guardian," an exercise that would pose an imaginary crisis to North American Air Defense outposts nationwide. The simulation would run all week, and Deskins, starting her 12-hour shift in the Operations Center as the NORAD unit's airborne control and warning officer, might find herself on the spot.

No I am not Azrael23.
 
paimei01 said:
So what if the transponder was shut down ? Do you think you are the first in the world to think about this, and in 2001 everybody said "oh no they shut down the transponder, now nobody can find them, we did not think about this !!".
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paimei01 said:
Its' not 80 minutes. On 9/11 there was not even a try by fighter planes to catch the hijackers.

I'm now going to explain why you're a fucking idiot.

The FAA said air traffic controllers lost radio contact with the plane at 9:44 a.m.

Pentagon officials said the military began its pursuit of the ghostly civilian aircraft at 10:08 a.m

The first time is Eastern Seaboard.

The second time is central mountain.

The plane went from one time zone to another.

There's an hour time difference. We had to drill this into fucking Jazzz on the "media happenings thread". Jazzz, Jazzz mind you, Jazzz who thinks he pwn'd a fucking architect on the matter of building engineering, conceded this point.

So what if the transponder was shut down ? Do you think you are the first in the world to think about this, and in 2001 everybody said "oh no they shut down the transponder, now nobody can find them, we did not think about this !!"

Buh? Argument from Personal Incredibility. You're assuming that they were prepared for this. You don't know, but just assume. Pretty much every previous hijacking in commerical airline history involved the hijackers flying the planes to another location and making fucking demands. This was an extraordinary situation. Planes and Hijackers don't switch off transponders. Please give an example of this happening before, before you state that they should have thought about it.


Ohhhhh you made me do it. I'm reposting this from another forum.

Read the following and tell me where NORAD went wrong.

------------


The following is a timeline of the NORAD response to the hijackings on 9/11, as based on the transcripts from over 30 hours of recordings inside the NORAD command centre.

All times are in Eastern Daylight Time

0759 AA11 departs Logan International Airport

0813 AA11 is hijacked. Short after its transponder is turned off

0814 UA175 departs Logan International Airport

0820 AA77 departs Washington Dulles International Airport

0820 AA11 turns off its IFF (Identify Friend-or-Foe) beacon and begins deviating from its scheduled flight path

0824 AA11 makes a 100 degree turn and heads for New York City

0837 Boston Centre notifies NEADS of the hijacking of AA11 and requests an aircraft scramble. This is the first incident of the morning.

08:37:52
BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise?
BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test.

0838 The two F-15s on alert status at Otis ANGB (Air National Guard Base) are put on “Battle Stations” (pilots enter their aircraft and await the signal to launch)

0839 NEADS contact Boston Centre and discover they do not know where AA11 is (because the aircraft’s transponder has been turned off).


08:39:58
WATSON: It’s the inbound to J.F.K.?
BOSTON CENTER: We—we don’t know.
WATSON: You don’t know where he is at all?
BOSTON CENTER: He’s being hijacked. The pilot’s having a hard time talking to the—I mean, we don’t know. We don’t know where he’s goin’. He’s heading towards Kennedy. He’s—like I said, he’s like 35 miles north of Kennedy now at 367 knots. We have no idea where he’s goin’ or what his intentions are.
WATSON: If you could please give us a call and let us know—you know any information, that’d be great.
BOSTON CENTER: Okay. Right now, I guess we’re trying to work on—I guess there’s been some threats in the cockpit. The pilot—
WATSON: There’s been what?! I’m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Threat to the … ?
BOSTON CENTER: We’ll call you right back as soon as we know more info.

0842 UA93 departs Newark International Airport

0844 UA 175 is hijacked

0844 Despite having no coordinates for intercept, NEADS decide to launch the Otis aircraft anyway.

08:44:59
FOX: M.C.C. [Mission Crew Commander], I don’t know where I’m scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination—
NASYPANY: O.K., I’m gonna give you the Z point [coordinate]. It’s just north of—New York City.
FOX: I got this lat long, 41-15, 74-36, or 73-46.
NASYPANY: Head ‘em in that direction.
FOX: Copy that.

0846 AA11 hits the North Tower of the World Trade Centre

0846 The stoplight at the Alert Barn on Otis ANGB turns from red to green, and the two F-15s taxi out to the runway.

0851 Boston Centre notifies NEADS that an aircraft has flown into the WTC. NEADS immediately call New York Centre, and discover they do not yet know about the incident. This is the second aircraft incident of the morning (NEADS do not know it is AA11).


08:51:11
ROUNTREE: A plane just hit the World Trade Center.
WATSON: What?
ROUNTREE: Was it a 737?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (background): Hit what?
WATSON: The World Trade Center—
DOOLEY: Who are you talking to? [Gasps.]
WATSON: Oh!
DOOLEY: Get—pass—pass it to them—
WATSON: Oh my God. Oh God. Oh my God.
ROUNTREE: Saw it on the news. It’s—a plane just crashed into the World Trade Center.
DOOLEY: Update New York! See if they lost altitude on that plane altogether.

Watson places a call to civilian controllers at New York Center.

WATSON: Yes, ma’am. Did you just hear the information regarding the World Trade Center?
NEW YORK CENTER: No.
WATSON: Being hit by an aircraft?
NEW YORK CENTER: I’m sorry?!
WATSON: Being hit by an aircraft.
NEW YORK CENTER: You’re kidding.
WATSON: It’s on the world news.

0852 UA175 turns off course and fails to respond to communication. New York Centre knows the aircraft has been hijacked.

0852 NEADS decide to direct the Otis fighters to New York City anyway.

08:52:40
NASYPANY: Send ‘em to New York City still. Continue! Go!
NASYPANY: This is what I got. Possible news that a 737 just hit the World Trade Center. This is a real-world. And we’re trying to confirm this. Okay. Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, J.F.K. area, if you can. Make sure that the F.A.A. clears it— your route all the way through. Do what we gotta do, okay? Let’s press with this. It looks like this guy could have hit the World Trade Center.

0854 AA77 is hijacked and its transponder is turned off. Indianapolis Centre loses contact with the aircraft and assumes it has crashed.

0855 Confusion begins to arise as to whether the aircraft that hit the WTC was AA11. Confirmation is required from the airline company (who independently track their aircraft), however American Airlines does not confirm the fate of AA11. Airlines routinely go into “information lockdown” when a crisis occurs.

08:55:18
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah, he crashed into the World Trade Center.
ROUNTREE: That is the aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Center?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yup. Disregard the—disregard the tail number [given earlier for American 11].
ROUNTREE: Disregard the tail number? He did crash into the World Trade Center?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): That’s—that’s what we believe, yes.
 
But an unidentified male trooper at NEADS overhears the exchange and raises a red flag.

08:56:31
MALE NEADS TECH: I never heard them say American Airlines Flight 11 hit the World Trade Center. I heard it was a civilian aircraft.

Dooley, the ID desk’s master sergeant, takes the phone from Rountree to confirm for herself, and the story veers off course …

DOOLEY (to Boston): Master Sergeant Dooley here. We need to have—are you giving confirmation that American 11 was the one—
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No, we’re not gonna confirm that at this time. We just know an aircraft crashed in and …
DOOLEY: You—are you—can you say—is anyone up there tracking primary on this guy still?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No. The last [radar sighting] we have was about 15 miles east of J.F.K., or eight miles east of J.F.K. was our last primary hit. He did slow down in speed. The primary that we had, it slowed down below—around to 300 knots.
DOOLEY: And then you lost ‘em?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah, and then we lost ‘em.

0856 Indianapolis Centre notify the FAA that AA77 has been hijacked (realizing it did not crash).

0903 NEADS are notified of a second hijacking. (3rd incident of the morning).

09:03:17
ROUNTREE: They have a second possible hijack!

0903 UA175 hits the South Tower of the WTC. A number of NEADS personnel witness it live on CNN.

0907 FAA civilian controllers direct the Otis fighters to enter a holding pattern over Long Island. They are worried about the fighters colliding with civilian aircraft in the densely packed airspace over New York.
NEADS weapon controllers are not happy.

09:07:20
NASYPANY: Okay, Foxy. Plug in. I want to make sure this is on tape.… This is what—this is what I foresee that we probably need to do. We need to talk to F.A.A. We need to tell ‘em if this stuff’s gonna keep on going, we need to take those fighters on and then put ‘em over Manhattan, O.K.? That’s the best thing. That’s the best play right now. So, coordinate with the F.A.A. Tell ‘em if there’s more out there, which we don’t know, let’s get ‘em over Manhattan. At least we got some kinda play.

NEADS weapons controllers request the launch of the two F-16 fighters at Alert on Langley AFB (Air Force Base) in Virginia. However this request is refused by NEADS command. Instead the fighters are put on Battle Stations. NEADS command are concerned that the Langley fighters are the only remaining aircraft they have – if both pairs are airborne at the same time both pairs will run out of fuel at the same time.

0921 Boston Centre notify NEADS of a third hijacked aircraft, headed for Washington DC. (4th incident of the morning).

9:21:37
DOOLEY: Another hijack! It’s headed towards Washington!
NASYPANY: ****! Give me a location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay. Third aircraft—hijacked—heading toward Washington.

0921 Boston Centre overhears a FAA conversation which mentions AA11 is still airborne. Based on this and AA11’s previous known heading they determine that it is headed for Washington DC. They notify NEADS.


9:21:50
NASYPANY: O.K. American Airlines is still airborne—11, the first guy. He’s heading towards Washington. O.K., I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I’m—I’m gonna take the fighters from Otis and try to chase this guy down if I can find him.

0922 The Langley fighters are scrambled, however the pilots are not given a reason for a scramble. The Navy ATC handling them directs them east, over the Atlantic Ocean, to a military training airspace called Whiskey 386.

0928 UA93 is hijacked.

0934 In the course of a call to Washington Centre, NEADS finds out about the hijacking of AA77 (bringing the day’s total – from NEADS’ point of view – to 4 hijackings (one crashed into WTC) plus the first crash into the WTC as a 5th aircraft).

9:34:01
WASHINGTON CENTER: Now, let me tell you this. I—I'll—we've been looking. We're—also lost American 77—
WATSON: American 77?
DOOLEY: American 77's lost—
WATSON: Where was it proposed to head, sir?
WASHINGTON CENTER: Okay, he was going to L.A. also—
WATSON: From where, sir?
WASHINGTON CENTER: I think he was from Boston also. Now let me tell you this story here. Indianapolis Center was working this guy—
WATSON: What guy?
WASHINGTON CENTER: American 77, at flight level 3-5-0 [35,000 feet]. However, they lost radar with him. They lost contact with him. They lost everything. And they don't have any idea where he is or what happened.

0934 NEADS notice the F-16s are headed in the wrong direction, and contact the Navy ATC.

9:34:12
NAVY A.T.C.: You’ve got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want ‘em to go to Baltimore?
HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We’re not gonna take ‘em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing ‘em back, just tell Center they’ve got to go to Baltimore.
NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We’ll get back to you.
CITINO: What do you mean, “We’ll get back to you”? Just do it!
HUCKABONE: I’m gonna choke that guy!
CITINO: Be very professional, Huck.
HUCKABONE: O.K.
CITINO: All right, Huck. Let’s get our act together here.

0935 Boston Centre notify NEADS of yet another unidentified aircraft flying over Washington DC (6th aircraft incident).

9:35:41
ROUNTREE: Huntress [call sign for NEADS] ID, Rountree, can I help you?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Latest report, [low-flying] aircraft six miles southeast of the White House.
ROUNTREE: Six miles southeast of the White House?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yup. East—he’s moving away?
ROUNTREE: Southeast from the White House.
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Air—aircraft is moving away.
ROUNTREE: Moving away from the White House?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah.…
ROUNTREE: Deviating away. You don’t have a type aircraft, you don’t know who he is—
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Nothing, nothing. We’re over here in Boston so I have no clue. That—hopefully somebody in Washington would have better—information for you.

0936 The Langley Fighters are directed to head for the White House.

9:36:23
NASYPANY: O.K., Foxy [Major Fox, the Weapons Team head]. I got a aircraft six miles east of the White House! Get your fighters there as soon as possible!
MALE VOICE: That came from Boston?
HUCKABONE: We’re gonna turn and burn it—crank it up—
MALE TECH: Six miles!
HUCKABONE: All right, here we go. This is what we’re gonna do—
NASYPANY: We’ve got an aircraft deviating eight [sic] miles east of the White House right now.
FOX: Do you want us to declare A.F.I.O. [emergency military control of the fighters] and run ‘em straight in there?
NASYPANY: Take ‘em and run ‘em to the White House.
FOX: Go directly to Washington.
CITINO: We’re going direct D.C. with my guys [Langley fighters]? Okay. Okay.
HUCKABONE: Ma’am, we are going A.F.I.O. right now with Quit 2-5 [the Langley fighters]. They are going direct Washington.
NAVY A.T.C.: Quit 2-5, we’re handing ‘em off to Center right now.
HUCKABONE: Ma’am, we need to expedite that right now. We’ve gotta contact them on 2-3-4-6.

0937 AA77 hits The Pentagon. The Langley Fighters are 150 miles away.

0939 After several transmissions from the hijackers, Cleveland Centre is now aware that UA93 has been hijacked. However they do not notify the military – standard procedure in the event of a hijacking is to hand control over to the FBI.

0940 Boston Centre notify NEADS of a possibly hijacking of Delta 1989. Unknown to Boston Centre, an ATC in Cleveland has already made contact with the crew of Delta 1989 and determined that there is no hijacking. This is the 7th aircraft incident of the day, as far as NEADS are aware.

9:40:57
ROUNTREE: Delta 89, that’s the hijack. They think it’s possible hijack.
DOOLEY: ****!
ROUNTREE: South of Cleveland. We have a code on him now.
DOOLEY: Good. Pick it up! Find it!
MALE TECH: Delta what?
ROUNTREE: Eight nine—a Boeing 767.
DOOLEY: ****, another one—

NEADS begin contacting ANG bases along the aircraft’s path, as there are no NORAD aircraft in a position to intercept.

0954 A base in Selfridge, Michigan offers up fighters to intercept Delta 1989.

9:54:54
SELFRIDGE FLIGHT OFFICER: Here—here’s what we can do. At a minimum, we can keep our guys airborne. I mean, they don’t have—they don’t have any guns or missiles or anything on board. But we—
NEADS TECH: It’s a presence, though.
 
1000 Some time between 0954 and 1007, NEADS receive a call from NORAD Canada Region, notifying them of a suspected hijack aircraft headed south across the border to Washington. This is the 8th aircraft incident.

1003 UA93 crashes into a field near Shankesville, Pennsylvania after passengers attempt to seize control of the cockpit.

1007 Baltimore Centre becomes aware of an aircraft over the White House. 9th aircraft incident

10:07:08
PILOT: Baltimore is saying something about an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
CITINO: Negative. Stand by. Do you copy that, SD [Major Fox]? Center said there’s an aircraft over the White House. Any words?
FOX: M.C.C. [Nasypany], we’ve got an aircraft reported over the White House.
NASYPANY: Intercept!
FOX: Intercept!
NASYPANY: Intercept and divert that aircraft away from there.
CITINO: Quit 2-5 [Langley fighters], mission is intercept aircraft over White House. Use F.A.A. for guidance.
FOX: Divert the aircraft away from the White House. Intercept and divert it.
CITINO: Quit 2-5, divert the aircraft from the White House.
PILOT: Divert the aircraft.…

1007 Cleveland Centre notifies NEADS of the hijacking of UA93 – unaware that it has already crashed. 10th aircraft incident.

10:07:16
CLEVELAND CENTER: We got a United 93 out here. Are you aware of that?
WATSON: United 93?
CLEVELAND CENTER: That has a bomb on board.
WATSON: A bomb on board?! And this is confirmed? You have a [beacon code], sir?
CLEVELAND CENTER: No, we lost his transponder.

The information is shouted out to Nasypany.

NASYPANY: Gimme the call sign. Gimme the whole nine yards.… Let’s get some info, real quick. They got a bomb?

1010 The chase towards the White House continues, eventually ending when NEADS realize the unidentified aircraft spotted by Baltimore Centre is actually the two Langley F-16s.

10:10:31
NASYPANY (to floor): Negative. Negative clearance to shoot.… Goddammit!…
FOX: I’m not really worried about code words at this point.
NASYPANY: **** the code words. That’s perishable information. Negative clearance to fire. ID. Type. Tail.

CITINO: Quit 2-6, Huntress. How far is the—suspect aircraft?
PILOT: Standby. Standby.… About 15 miles, Huntress.
CITINO: Huntress copies two-two miles.
PILOT: 15 miles, Huntress.
CITINO: 15 miles. One-five … noise level please … It’s got to be low. Quit 2-6, when able say altitude of the aircraft.… Did we get a Z-track [coordinates] up for the White House?
HUCKABONE: They’re workin’ on it.
CITINO: Okay. Hey, what’s this Bravo 0-0-5 [unidentified target]?
FOX: We’re trying to get the Z-point. We’re trying to find it.
HUCKABONE: I don’t even know where the White House is.
CITINO: Whatever it is, it’s very low. It’s probably a helicopter.
MALE VOICE: It’s probably the helicopter you’re watching there.… There’s probably one flying over the [Pentagon].
MALE VOICE: It’s probably the smoke. The building’s smoked. [They’re seeing more pictures of the flaming Pentagon on CNN.]
HUCKABONE: Holy ****.… Holy **** …
CITINO: Yes. We saw that. O.K.—let’s watch our guys, Huck. Not the TV.… Quit 2-6, status? SD, they’re too low. I can’t talk to ‘em. They’re too low. I can’t talk to ‘em.
FOX: Negative clearance to fire.
CITINO: O.K. I told ‘em mission is ID and that was it.
FOX: Do whatever you need to divert. They are not cleared to fire.

HUCKABONE: It was our guys [the fighters from Langley].
CITINO: Yup. It was our guys they saw. It was our guys they saw—Center saw.
FOX: New York did the same thing….
CITINO: O.K., Huck. That was cool. We intercepted our own guys.

1015 NEADS are notified that UA93 has crashed.

10:15:00
WATSON: United nine three, have you got information on that yet?
WASHINGTON CENTER: Yeah, he’s down.
WATSON: What—he’s down?
WASHINGTON CENTER: Yes.
WATSON: When did he land? Because we have confirmation—
WASHINGTON CENTER: He did—he did—he did not land.

Here, on the tape, you hear the air rush out of Watson’s voice.

WATSON: Oh, he’s down down?
MALE VOICE: Yes. Yeah, somewhere up northeast of Camp David.
WATSON: Northeast of Camp David.
WASHINGTON CENTER: That’s the—that’s the last report. They don’t know exactly where

1015 30 seconds after being notified that UA93 has crashed, NORAD South East Air Defense Sector (SEADS) notifies NEADS of another potential hijacking. This is the 11th incident of the day.

10:15:30
POWELL: Southeast just called. There’s another possible hijack in our area.…
NASYPANY: All right. **** …

False reports of hijackings, and real responses, continue well into the afternoon, though civilian air-traffic controllers had managed to clear the skies of all commercial and private aircraft by just after 12 p.m. The fighter pilots over New York and D.C. (and later Boston and Chicago) would spend hours darting around their respective skylines intercepting hundreds of aircraft they deemed suspicious. Meanwhile, Arnold, Marr, and Nasypany were launching as many additional fighters as they could, placing some 300 armed jets in protective orbits over every major American city by the following morning. No one at NEADS would go home until late on the night of the 11th, and then only for a few hours of sleep.

Vanity Fair Article on the NORAD tapes.

See what you've got there mate? An awful lot of confusion, but a rapid response. There were nearly a dozen confused reports from panicked air traffic controllers, planes intercepting each other. But the response time was rapid. You're dealing with the busiest airspace in the world, reacting to an unprecedented event, multiple hijackings in a matter of minutes, with the aim of turning the planes into missiles. And you're comparing this to a fucking Lear Jet flying at level altitude over South Dakota, and expecting a faster response? Where the fuck is the "away with the pixies" Morrissey Gif?
 
To summaries.

1) No you muppet there were several attempts to intercept planes made by NORAD on September 11th.

2) The Payne Stewart Incident took 80 minutes to intercept in ideal circumstances.

3) NORAD responded fast, was hampered by understandable confusion due to the multiple hijackings, and other reports of hijackings, but even under ideal circumstances would have been nigh on impossible for them to intercept a plane in the timeframe necessary.

Any more questions, or are you just going to regurgitate some more stupid?
 
8den said:
Hey and that plane was flying on a straight course, with transponder on, and autopilot working, in South fucking Dakota mind you.

On the other hand the 911 hijackers deviated from course, switched off their plane's transponders, and were flying over the Eastern Seaboard of the US the busiest piece of air space on the planet.

How long did it take for the jets to Scramble in 1999? 80 minutes.

How long before the hijackers crashed or hit their targets on September 11th? Less than 80 minutes in every case.

So basically you're saying thats its suspicious that the airforce didn't respond even faster than the incident in '99 which was a best case scenario for a unresponsive plane.

Really? Numbnuts, Really?

If you want me to link to the exact NORAD timeline, I fucking will. But come up with some better shit than Payne Steward first.

Incidentally taking post Sept 11th examples is fucking retarded. Of course the US will react differently to a plane over DC post 911.

Finally, who exactly would you be satisfied with the buck stopping with? Bush? Cheney? Some NORAD radar operator?

On and actually fin-a-fucking-ly. Would you care to explain which "wargames" left the US undefended on 911?



So the Bush administration are a bunch of lying deceitful cunts, who use the threat of terrorism as a puppet show to distract from other domestic and foreign policy failures. Gosh let me pick my fucking jaw up from the floor. Do you have another point Eddy? Or are you going to next demonstrate that the sky is blue? Or that puppies and kittens are fucking cute. Seriously Eddie what's your sodding point?
Additionally, in the Stewart case the first planes to intercept the aircraft were ALREADY in the air on a training exercise.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Nicely done there 8den, even if it is like shooting very dumb fish in a very small barrel :D

Can't take the credit, it's a C&P from a very intelligent poster on the JREF forum.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
I really should get around to registering over there....

Badger Kitten just joined. It's fun being a NWO Stooge. We get health benefits, and three free assassinations a month.
 
The dynamics of conspiraloonery are identical to the dynamics of creationism in the way the websites work to 'evolve' plausible-sounding stories from random babble.

It's a PhD thesis waiting to happen.

I wonder if both camps will ever team up - "The US Government would have us believe that the Twin Towers were destroyed by airliners spontaneously created by a whirlwind whipping round a scrapyard in Area 51 . . . "
 
And another thing - please could editor point me towards the 'Morissey caption generator' :D
 
I would like to point out at this point that rather-well-connected novelist Armistead Maupin wrote about Bohemian Grove's secrets in detail, in 1987, in his book '' Significant Others'', part of the ''Tales of the City series'', set in San Fransisco and surrounding area.

In this comic novel, heavily based on his observations and insider knowledge of contemporary rich and gay society in LA/SanFran, he explored male camaraderie at the rich old white fart's Bohemian Grove summer camp, and female camaraderie at a women's-only feminist camp, Wimminwood, downriver.

He described Bohemian Grove as exactly what it is, a networking club summer camp for rich old Republican farts reliving their frat boy days in an affectionate insider portrayal. In the book the comedy happens when Booter, a wealthy old Republican accidentally ends up in Wimminwood. Anyway, here's your expose of the owl stuff...Booter has arrived at camp, and is enjoying the freedom of the place he has been visiting each summer for forty years, meeting old buddies who are equally happy to escape from their demanding society wives...

Armistead Maupin in 1987 said:
'He headed down the River Road towards Hillbillies, immersing himself in the sights and sounds of the frontier community coming to life under the giant trees. The very name of the camps triggered half a lifetime of memories: Dog House, Toyland, Pig n' Whistle, Sons of Toil...
Someone was playing a piano - 'These Foolish Things' - on the ridge to the left. To the right was a Dixieland band and a chorus practicing a classical number he didn't recognise. Their vioces trailed heavenward, hovering like woodsmoke in the slanting afternoon light.

As night fell, he assembled with the others at the Owl Shrine for the Cremation of Care. The already drunken crowd fell silent as the lakeside organist began to play the dirge and the High Priest summoned his acolytes. Then the barge materialised, poled silently across the lake, bearing the palled figure of Care.

When the barge reached the shrine, two acolytes removed the pall, revealing the macarbre effigy with its pairet mache mask. the effigy was dutifully placed upon the pyre, but the incineration was halted, as always, by sinister, electronically enhanced laughter from the hillside.
All eyes turned towards the ridge as a puff of smoke and a flash of light revealed the presence of the ghostly white Tree of Care. From deep within the tree thundered the voice of Care itself:

'Fools, fools, fools, when will ye learn that me ye cannot slay? Year after year ye burn me in this Grove, lifting your silly shouts of triumph to the pitying stars. But when ye turn your feet again to the marketplace, am I not waiting for ye as of old? Fools, fools, fools, to dream ye conquer Care!'
The High Priest answered:
'Year after year, within this happy Grove, our fellowship has damned thee for a space, and thy malevolence that would pursue us has lost its power beneath these friendly trees. So shall we burn thee once again this night, and in the flames that eat thine effigy we'll read the sign that, once again, midsummer sets us free'
Then, after lighting their torches at the gas-jet altar fire, the acolytes descended upon the pyre and set Care aflame, piercing the night with shouts of ecstasy. The band broke into 'Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight'.
Booter smiled, feeling the old magic, then withdrew into the darkness as fireworks burst in the trees above the lake.

See? It's like grown up Boy scouts. It was always there, all the juice, in a book that has been on sale for the last twenty years. Very well connected, Mr Maupin. He broke the news about Rock Hudson being gay and HIV positive too, in a thinly disguised blind piece in another one of the series' books, describing a weekend 'men's pool party' at the star's house - where Mouse, the lead character actually picks up HIV from Rock, only discovering he has the virus years later.

Anyway, I digress. But it always amuses me when conspiraloons go on about child eating owl gods at Bohemian Grove. It's been an open secret what goes on there for years.
 
Jon Ronson did some stuff on Bohemian Grove too.

It's like the original Facebook but for old Republicans and oil barons.
 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=53815767687186956&hl=en
A firefighter tells the story of what he did on 9/11.

"Tower one was coming down from the interior on us"
"Inside structure was just disintegrating, we were like : How is this happening when the plane was up fifty more stories and the stairway is collapsing on us ?"
"Explosions , fires everywhere "
"It wasn't a F14 shooting rockets at us"
"We got down to the third floor and that's where the stairway collapsed on us
and we had to dig all the way out, now the building is coming down we can't see nothing, once again, saying our prayers, you know the show is over here now, this is it.
And with that, all of the sudden, we're looking for another stairwell, me and the lieutenant open a door, we find a body in this closet, we were like : what the heck is that, where did this come from, what's going on here ?, something crazy is going on.
We got our way out off the third stall and that's where the maintenance fellow with a little flash light saved our lives , he was pointing over at us , if it wasn't for him we never would have found another stairwell, the building would have collapsed, William Rodriguez, he saved our lives"
"People coming down the stairs from all different stories , burnt"
"We got down to the lobby and everything was blown up, exploded"

He also says about some people who were told not to go to work that day

Of course no eye witness testified for the 9/11 "investigation".
 
paimei01 said:
He also says about some people who were told not to go to work that day.
Who was told what by whom exactly? Where are these people?

Real names, testimony, credible evidence and non-loon sources or fuck right off.
 
editor said:
Who was told what by whom exactly? Where are these people?

Real names, testimony, credible evidence and non-loon sources or fuck right off.

He doesn't say how he knows but simply a friend told him so. He furthermore says at the following tc

19:45 My mental health is shot, I can't remember yesterday some days.

20:40 Everywhere I see I see 911, On the clock 911 the house where I grew up 199

He rambles on about health issues of 1st responders, and heaps scorn on Gulliani. He's clearly suffering from PTS, and is being asked leading questions by that grade A scumbag Dylan Avery.

This is someone abusing a man with mental health problems. Its fucking sickening.
 
paimei01 said:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=53815767687186956&hl=en
A firefighter tells the story of what he did on 9/11.

"Tower one was coming down from the interior on us"
"Inside structure was just disintegrating, we were like : How is this happening when the plane was up fifty more stories and the stairway is collapsing on us ?"
"Explosions , fires everywhere "
"It wasn't a F14 shooting rockets at us"
"We got down to the third floor and that's where the stairway collapsed on us
and we had to dig all the way out, now the building is coming down we can't see nothing, once again, saying our prayers, you know the show is over here now, this is it.
And with that, all of the sudden, we're looking for another stairwell, me and the lieutenant open a door, we find a body in this closet, we were like : what the heck is that, where did this come from, what's going on here ?, something crazy is going on.
We got our way out off the third stall and that's where the maintenance fellow with a little flash light saved our lives , he was pointing over at us , if it wasn't for him we never would have found another stairwell, the building would have collapsed, William Rodriguez, he saved our lives"
"People coming down the stairs from all different stories , burnt"
"We got down to the lobby and everything was blown up, exploded"

He also says about some people who were told not to go to work that day

Of course no eye witness testified for the 9/11 "investigation".
That would be all those firefighters whose statements are at:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...12_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Have we really got to go through all this shit again? It's already been done to death in the mega thread.

Another interesting source of genuine info on the FDNY, transcripts and statements is here:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=43995
 
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