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After Neo-Liberalism?

As a social relation of production. We got into this because I'd mentioned 'the interests of capital' - even if you don't take the same view should have been clear I wasn't talking about the interests of 'assets people value' or whatever you're on about.
When you say the 'interests of capital' do you mean people who wish to invest their spare money in assets such as the share market, bonds etc? If not then please could you explain what you mean, because these people would definitely value their assets in the way I describe, and different people value different assets differently at times leading to profit on the stock market.
 
Are you suggesting that markets, assets/property ownership are not accepted as part of life by the majority of the population? We have had markets for hundreds of years, and although ownership is more modern most people recognise this as a viable aim in life to get enough assets to pay for one's old age.
This might be a contribution to a debate about what comes after neoliberalism if you had the slightest inkling that what you think is Nature's Way is a result of neoliberalism, but we're never going to get there, are we?
 
Yep - deleted a whole bit about the deliberate engineering to get rid of all the once very content secure tenants of council housing because I couldn't be arsed.
The UK has been based on an attitude of from cradle to grave for hundreds of years, but the rest of the world is not like that, and as an Elitist system its perpetuation cannot easily be justified. Why would one part of society ensure a high standard of living for the rest when income is going down? They are more likely to cut the funding for the poor at regular intervals.

It really depends if you wish to maintain such an elitist system, or to move to a non-Elitist system for all, with equality rather than privilege etc.
 
This might be a contribution to a debate about what comes after neoliberalism if you had the slightest inkling that what you think is Nature's Way is a result of neoliberalism, but we're never going to get there, are we?
Nature's Way? What on earth do you mean by that? People are born, they live, they die. The law of the jungle was stopped the moment we invented a system of laws to live by.
 
When you say the 'interests of capital' do you mean people who wish to invest their spare money in assets such as the share market, bonds etc? If not then please could you explain what you mean, because these people would definitely value their assets in the way I describe, and different people value different assets differently at times leading to profit on the stock market.
It's those social forces that benefit from having "living labour serving accumulated labour as the means of preserving and multiplying its exchange value" (see here) It's not so much about freezing the cycle that occurs in at some particular point and saying the interests of this or that person, but watching the logic of that relationship play out over time in everyone's lives.
 
Nature's Way? What on earth do you mean by that? People are born, they live, they die. The law of the jungle was stopped the moment we invented a system of laws to live by.
I mean you being quite happy to make bald assertions about how people are because that's how they are.
 
And then it started again in 1876.
We do not live in a law of the jungle situation - you do not have people attempting to invade your property because of the property rights you enjoy, and I am sure that if they did you would phone the police.
 
Why does the law of the jungle get such a bad rap? Everybody likes being able to hang their hammock where they like and all the fruit and hunting they could ever want or need.
 
It's those social forces that benefit from having "living labour serving accumulated labour as the means of preserving and multiplying its exchange value" (see here) It's not so much about freezing the cycle that occurs in at some particular point and saying the interests of this or that person, but watching the logic of that relationship play out over time in everyone's lives.
Privilege exists and the UK is distinctly poor at addressing this. If everyone had a fair start in life to rise to the position which most suited their talents then that would be better and is a principle I have, which leads to a duty of government. However the UK does not have a form of government which would enable this to occur. Marx drew attention to this problem very effectively, and he was right to point out the undeserved nature of the current structure, but none of my analysis has been against this, and assets still exist. The Marx definition of Capital seems (from your link) to include all factors of production, but demand is there, and labour is what everyone needs to do to get food on the table.
 
A human posted this

If everyone had a fair start in life to rise to the position which most suited their talents then that would be better and is a principle I have, which leads to a duty of government. However the UK does not have a form of government which would enable this to occur.
 
The existence of a class which possesses nothing but the ability to work is a necessary presupposition of capital.

This is an argument for meritocracy not against capital.
 
Why does the law of the jungle get such a bad rap? Everybody likes being able to hang their hammock where they like and all the fruit and hunting they could ever want or need.
Only in a model with unlimited factors of production
 
Are you suggesting that markets, assets/property ownership are not accepted as part of life by the majority of the population? We have had markets for hundreds of years, and although ownership is more modern most people recognise this as a viable aim in life to get enough assets to pay for one's old age.

Accepted within what context? People want somewhere to live, stuff to eat, to provide for their families, to belong and to live through shared social values and identities.....

...so in 2012 in the U.K, recognised as a localised point in a wider historical, geographical and social context then yes lots of things are accepted, at least in terms of day to life. This "acceptance" also does have to be looked at in terms of its particular setting and history, so to pick up on the council/social housing thing that JimW mentioned the idea of owning property grounded heavily in neo-liberal ideology has been pushed and forced so as to become the norm and the default.

To then claim that because people need somewhere to live and that this is the way in which it is increasingly brought about through ownerships shows a total acceptance of market values and property in terms of accumulation of assets and financial security completely misses quite a few issues. Significantly, idea of security which you accept, as the need for shelter combined with a need for economic security has emerged through neo-liberal shifts and pressures which actively and aggressively necessitate this shift.

So yes, people want to own a home and have financial security, and that has to be examined within a framework of insecurity and threat, whereby this solution and safeguarding is wrapped up as a response to these problems, whilst also being a symptom of them and the changes they have forced and pushed.

It's pretty amazing you can't see how blinkered your vision is on this. I'm writing this from spain, which is not even that far from the UK and even here your idea of "markets" (and marked-based ownership) existing for hundreds of years doesn't carry any weight, especially when seen as something intrinsic behind the aims and aspirations of the majority of people, or the social values which have bound them together and shaped their lives.
 
Accepted within what context? People want somewhere to live, stuff to eat, to provide for their families, to belong and to live through shared social values and identities.....

...so in 2012 in the U.K, recognised as a localised point in a wider historical, geographical and social context then yes lots of things are accepted, at least in terms of day to life. This "acceptance" also does have to be looked at in terms of its particular setting and history, so to pick up on the council/social housing thing that JimW mentioned the idea of owning property grounded heavily in neo-liberal ideology has been pushed and forced so as to become the norm and the default.

To then claim that because people need somewhere to live and that this is the way in which it is increasingly brought about through ownerships shows a total acceptance of market values and property in terms of accumulation of assets and financial security completely misses quite a few issues. Significantly, idea of security which you accept, as the need for shelter combined with a need for economic security has emerged through neo-liberal shifts and pressures which actively and aggressively necessitate this shift.

So yes, people want to own a home and have financial security, and that has to be examined within a framework of insecurity and threat, whereby this solution and safeguarding is wrapped up as a response to these problems, whilst also being a symptom of them and the changes they have forced and pushed.

It's pretty amazing you can't see how blinkered your vision is on this. I'm writing this from spain, which is not even that far from the UK and even here your idea of "markets" (and marked-based ownership) existing for hundreds of years doesn't carry any weight, especially when seen as something intrinsic behind the aims and aspirations of the majority of people, or the social values which have bound them together and shaped their lives.
Spain has been engaged in trade for centuries. The idea that people are owned and therefore looked after as the slaves of owners has rightly been consigned to history. As free people living in a free world we get to choose how we put food on the table, but no one has a duty to provide for us like we are children who cannot look after ourselves. If it were like that we would be keeping the population as an infantilised population and would not be able to expect them to take responsibility for their actions. Which we do.

Why should a farmer take some of his food and give it to you if you didn't help to grow it? that is why a market exists through the medium of a currency. Even before money people exchanged goods through barter. It is only the population explosion which has exacebated the situation.
 
Look what up? Can you please give a hint?
It is you who asked what are x. It refers to x.

This is just an example of your attempt to derail a discussion you are uncomfortable engaging in.

So don't waste my time, either engage as an adult or go look 'it' up.
 
You said:



I asked you what factors of production are. Not x. Explain your post.
And I stated that I will not engage with you as an adult until you engage with me as one, without abuse. You have stated that you will not do this, and so, as I say, go look it up.
 
Spain has been engaged in trade for centuries. The idea that people are owned and therefore looked after as the slaves of owners has rightly been consigned to history. As free people living in a free world we get to choose how we put food on the table, but no one has a duty to provide for us like we are children who cannot look after ourselves. If it were like that we would be keeping the population as an infantilised population and would not be able to expect them to take responsibility for their actions. Which we do.

Why should a farmer take some of his food and give it to you if you didn't help to grow it? that is why a market exists through the medium of a currency. Even before money people exchanged goods through barter. It is only the population explosion which has exacebated the situation.

Incredibly you've managed to reply to a post and not reply or respond to a single thing in it. Not one. If "Spain" was taken out of your post it could be viewed completely in isolation as just a short write up of your ideology and free-market zeal.

What about the folks who don't have the choice to put food on their table? Where do they fit in? Free to starve, free to choose! You seem to have reshaped your understanding and usage of the term "markets" to fit your latest post and the ideology behind it, within that understanding you could extend the market-rain in various countries to tens of thousands of years...

Your notions of freedom and choice seem pretty infantile really, although admittedly interesting to argue against. This skewed drive towards responsible decision, devoid of context or historical/geographical setting washed down with generous contempt for those less able in their choice and freedom than you.

The providing that is received which you assume as a duty also misses the point of the struggle behind it. Shit, go out in the fields around this area and there are still mass graves not yet dug up. People who fought, killed and died not to be starving slaves and owned by landlords, there wasn't much duty to provide, that duty was forced and taken, same as everywhere else tbh. Where's the responsibility in that eh... :rolleyes:
 
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