The Black Hand
Unclean
Zonk said:Now thats a bleeding falsehood if ever I saw one...
Before your time sonny, b4 your time...
A Touch of Class Available To Download
- Thread starter Paul Marsh
- Start date
Before your time sonny, b4 your time...
Attica said:
If you think that CW/Libcom/MTB etc are state then yes you do have to give that evidence over.
You must understand this?
Attica said:
Excellent, we have agreeement. Have you been ill over the last 15 years?
The Black Hand
Unclean
Karen Eliot said:
I never said that.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Karen Eliot said:
WTF are you gibbering about?
Attica said:
You certainly suggested it and at some length when asked. Are you happy to take it back now?
Is that yes? Come on? You're quick enough with the replies - normally.
He's got not long to present evidence or prepare for coventry. With his big speech coming up too.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Karen Eliot said:
I am taking nothing back, I am happy to leave it as it is.
My arguments have been consistent, I have shown the compromised politics of CW up, the kangaroo court, the lack of democractic standards (agreed procedures), the lack of anything short of a red card, etc. I think A touch of crap, sorry class, is poor, i think anybody with half a brain thinks the same too. Note Larry o'hara's 'faint praise' for a touch of toss (whoops class) - something reminisecent of Caesar in his praise too...
The thing is i am sensitive, I do not take fools gladly, I read/think at a very fast pace, and I also get bored easily... I sound like a romantic poet
but seriously, I do have politics, I know what good politics is too, so I make no apologies, ever...The Black Hand
Unclean
Zonk said:I forget, length of time served and hierarchy etc, aswell as a patronising self importance. Jolly good
That's U tosser...
Zonk
Well-Known Member
Karen Eliot said:
He has yet more speeches? Blimey.
Is this the one where he exposes the great soviet like purge he has previously been on about?
I'm rivited. So much so that my mrs' cries of 'get off the computer' and my responding negative expletives have resulted in me ending up sleeping on the couch, I really dont want to miss this....
Attica said:
You're happy to leave the accusation unproven and unevidenced. I'm not happy that you have and continue to make these accusations. I'm dissociating from you and encourage others to do the same. Send him to coventry.
Actually don't send him to cov, who will it help. We all know it's shit.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Karen Eliot said:
THats a laff - sometime b4/around the WOmbles/CW merger thread you started this 'I love Paul' stuff, which is strange considering the stuff he said behind your back about U... I treated you as a friend, how wrong could i b.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Mocking The Afflicted!!!!!!!
Can't you lot stop being horribe to poor old Attica.
Its none of my business as I have said before.
However if you lot are going to do your dirty washing and infantile bitching in public, I think I have a right to say as I have before that the expulsion of Attica is completely out of order. When I was a Libertarian Socialist/Anarchist we had this concept of mutual cooperation. Surely you could have found some way to acommodate Attica. If he does have 'issues' as is expressed on this thread, do you really think that alienating Attica is the right way forward, or ethical.
Attica, you do yourself no favours by even implying that CW or any other group on the libertairian left is state. You better than I should know that you should not make any such allegations without evidence. If you have any evidence then you should come out with it, if not all this is counter productive, more like the politics of the SWP, attempting to use character assasination as a political tool for your own ends. 
Can't you lot stop being horribe to poor old Attica.
Its none of my business as I have said before.
However if you lot are going to do your dirty washing and infantile bitching in public, I think I have a right to say as I have before that the expulsion of Attica is completely out of order. When I was a Libertarian Socialist/Anarchist we had this concept of mutual cooperation. Surely you could have found some way to acommodate Attica. If he does have 'issues' as is expressed on this thread, do you really think that alienating Attica is the right way forward, or ethical.
Attica, you do yourself no favours by even implying that CW or any other group on the libertairian left is state. You better than I should know that you should not make any such allegations without evidence. If you have any evidence then you should come out with it, if not all this is counter productive, more like the politics of the SWP, attempting to use character assasination as a political tool for your own ends.
Paul Marsh
NeitherWashingtonNorMecca
Nigel - My last comment on this.
You rather answered your own point as to why here but I should add the membership of Class War was physically and mentally exhaused dealing with Attica. People had had enough of his hectoring, arrogance and in the true sense of the word his stupidity - a feeling that the moderators of both Libcom and MATB (for e.g.) shared. Imagine the nonsense you see from him on this site daily, stretching over years, and you will have an indication of what I mean.
Over time Class War has suppported members with mental health problems and other personal crises. Some have stayed in the group and prospered, others have gone their own ways. It was (and indeed is) impossible to help Attica, because he genuinely believes he is a revolutionary and academic of international importance who others should be following. Conflict is inevitable unless you share his haughty self-importance and what he sees as his leadership of "ideas".
After numerous attempts to seek other solutions, a vote of no confidence in him was proposed. That was a fair, open vote of all members - and it was decisive. So much for the accusations of "Stalinism".
Only one other person left the group. That, and the fact Attica is the first Class War member to be expelled in 14 years, perhaps shows how extraordinary his behaviour was.
As we wrote in Unfinished Business
We are moving on. It is time Attica did the same.
You rather answered your own point as to why here but I should add the membership of Class War was physically and mentally exhaused dealing with Attica. People had had enough of his hectoring, arrogance and in the true sense of the word his stupidity - a feeling that the moderators of both Libcom and MATB (for e.g.) shared. Imagine the nonsense you see from him on this site daily, stretching over years, and you will have an indication of what I mean.
Over time Class War has suppported members with mental health problems and other personal crises. Some have stayed in the group and prospered, others have gone their own ways. It was (and indeed is) impossible to help Attica, because he genuinely believes he is a revolutionary and academic of international importance who others should be following. Conflict is inevitable unless you share his haughty self-importance and what he sees as his leadership of "ideas".
After numerous attempts to seek other solutions, a vote of no confidence in him was proposed. That was a fair, open vote of all members - and it was decisive. So much for the accusations of "Stalinism".
Only one other person left the group. That, and the fact Attica is the first Class War member to be expelled in 14 years, perhaps shows how extraordinary his behaviour was.
As we wrote in Unfinished Business
We are moving on. It is time Attica did the same.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Paul,
I respect you a lot as a political activist and hopefully as a comrade and friend.
By what I have read (mostly on here) and heard (mostly gossip) I got the impression things just got out of hand.
There is no way that I would call you a Stalinist or doubt your political integrity.
Good luck with London CWF and Touch Of Class.
If you want help distributing it in Oxford get in contact.
I respect you a lot as a political activist and hopefully as a comrade and friend.
By what I have read (mostly on here) and heard (mostly gossip) I got the impression things just got out of hand.
There is no way that I would call you a Stalinist or doubt your political integrity.
Good luck with London CWF and Touch Of Class.
If you want help distributing it in Oxford get in contact.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Nigel said:
There was no democracy - it was a tyranny of structurelessness. They sprung an adhoc motion - I tried to get one proposed along the same lines aimed at those who started the anti democratic nonsense - to point out that the process was flawed - but this was disallowed - tyranny of structurelessness. What matters was not democracy, procedures, justice, but who controllwed the machinery - and that is STALINISM... SO Paul is a wanker - such is life. I trusted him once too.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Paul Marsh said:
Bollocks Paul. CW as it is now is a DIFFERENT organisation to what it was when it was succesful. Since the split in the mid 1990s it operated without a constitution.
I am a libertarian and everybody who knows me also does not recognise your attempt to demonise me as an arrogant, hectoring and stupid. I have faith in people, clearly you try to manipulate opinion, and you have been caught out spinning before.
I have always been sensitive to peoples ideas and have always listened to other people, and those I have worked with.
What you are talking about is yourself and a tosser from Norwich, for some reason, which I still do not understand, you got rid of me in a very anti democractic manner. Dave Douglass left because of the CRAP politics this exposed at the heart of what is now CW. CW is going nowhere, does nothing (and hasn't for 10 years) and is collapsing while you jet off to Thailand for the fourth time in a year
The thing is that your political poverty is challenged by me and that is why you decided to 'get rid of me'... BUT I am happy cutting my own path, as I always have, outside of CW
What I cannot stand is the Stalinist attempt to rewrite history, that will get you no peace at all...
Zonk
Well-Known Member
Attica said:Bollocks Paul. CW as it is now is a DIFFERENT organisation to what it was when it was succesful. Since the split in the mid 1990s it operated without a constitution.
I am a libertarian and everybody who knows me also does not recognise your attempt to demonise me as an arrogant, hectoring and stupid. I have faith in people, clearly you try to manipulate opinion, and you have been caught out spinning before.
I have always been sensitive to peoples ideas and have always listened to other people, and those I have worked with.
What you are talking about is yourself and a tosser from Norwich, for some reason, which I still do not understand, you got rid of me in a very anti democractic manner. Dave Douglass left because of the CRAP politics this exposed at the heart of what is now CW. CW is going nowhere, does nothing (and hasn't for 10 years) and is collapsing while you jet off to Thailand for the fourth time in a year
The thing is that your political poverty is challenged by me and that is why you decided to 'get rid of me'... BUT I am happy cutting my own path, as I always have, outside of CW
My my, that tosser from Norwich clearly has imense power over members opinions to organise such an amazing coup.
Fuck me, I might try and pull the same fantastic feat next time I'm down the bookies.....
slightlyleft
New Member
is Attica the guy who used to sign 'one love'
The Black Hand
Unclean
slightlyleft said:
That's you that is.
slightlyleft
New Member
Is that a yes then ?
The Black Hand
Unclean
slightlyleft said:
No - do you have learning difficulties? That's a 'That's you that is' - a complete denial...
slightlyleft
New Member
that's you that is would imply that it's me who is the 'one love' which it isn't because I am not a member of class war
The Black Hand
Unclean
Nobody is anymore. I'm notslightlyleft said:
The Black Hand
Unclean
The Last Post
From the diffuse hospital that reactionaries like Paul and Karen have confined me in, writing by candlelight. Thanks Edward Palmer…
I started to reason in my 28th year, and, despite all the best efforts, I have not been able to give up the habit. The traditions I write from are that of Socialist Humanism and the events of class struggles, positive and negative.
Thank you very much for asking how I was feeling, I can see your care for my welfare is non-existent. For the record I am not ill, other than for my Achilles tendon. This is not the first time that mental health has been used to ‘get rid’ of political opponents. Behind the Iron Curtain they used to put political dissidents in Mental Health institutions – Stalinism…
The root of the problem is that I have political disagreements with CW and the AF/Organise, we all badly need to move towards better politics than what passes for politics of the frankly uneducated anarchist leadership. Education here doesn't prioritise official institutional definitions in its hierarchy of judgement; rather the experience of working class history, practice and political theory is the basis of judgement. They clearly are not very good to say the least, but the medicine I am recommending is too harsh for their consumption.
As I am talking in medical idioms then the medicine would be an organisational suicide pill! But, the urge to destroy is a creative urge; I want to break up the organisations and cliques that exist and build something better, freer, more creative, open, caring and human. What there is now - is pathetic, and it’s time it was said openly without those who say this being victimised – something akin to protection for whistleblowing… The smoke billows above Budapest (1956) again, and as Edward Palmer said, ‘its time to staff those barricades again’…
It’s unbelievable that a lot of Chinese whispers, slander and lies emanating from Paul are taken seriously by some politico’s, notably Karen. Without any factual basis, apparently I have been ill for over a decade according to Paul and Karen. This is rubbish and lies.
‘You don’t know what you’re doing’
It also shows up the awful politics of a section of the movement, and the following is in reaction to their recent posts. Karen’s judgement has always been poor – apparently that’s what you get when you read too much ultra leftist rubbish Karen’s judgement is flawed because he has no evidence for the things he has said and because he has chosen to support ‘A Touch of Toss’/Paul rather than thinking critically for himself. A Touch of Toss is crap, and only those with little class struggle experience would think otherwise, it’s not up to any task. The poverty of the movement is there for all to see – one lame duck defends another.
If there ever was a mental health issue then surely this implies some conversation about a mental health issue? None took place, at any time. What Paul is trying to miserably do is exert his hegemony over his baby CW – for his own ends, whatever they are. ‘Stillborn’ would be an accurate description of what CW currently is. Even if you accept the mental health argument currently forwarded, and I do not, then there are tremendous problems with the reactionary political approach used. You may have thought some sensitivity would be in order, to talk reasonably (off line) about any issues. There has been none of this. At best there has been ever increasing blustering, crass comments and reactionary Stalinist methods. If this is their behaviour in a non-crisis situation, then this does not bode well for any revolution that involved these people.
Why Karen and Paul have chosen to spread the mental health issue with glee I do not know. They are not qualified and have no evidence; I am fine.
CW has no political existence – it is living off former glories, it produces nothing of interest. Paul’s CW has done nothing for 10 years and it will continue to do nothing; it’s theoretically empty, no practice and therefore no praxis. As for Karen, who has written/published nothing, done nothing, and has not had his ideas tested anywhere beyond a self-referential clique, then of course I have similar issues with his capability to judge anything. Thankfully I ground and test my ideas beyond ultra left cliques so I know what are good ideas and what are not, it is time that anarchists and/or ultra leftists operated beyond their precious circles of non achievers and entered the real world of praxis.
There have been a couple of demands for ‘what I do’ and ‘to do something’. I have been preparing the ground for the growth of an autonomous class struggle movement. Amongst other things soon a magazine will be printed which will directly and indirectly show up the pathetic and stale Left/@’s – they know who they are; their time in command has been, done nothing, had no effect, and gone.
Now is the time to move into new territory found in the true realm of freedom, the ever growing circulation of struggles during praxis - towards autonomy.
Appendix
From one of the documents (a resignation letter from a comrade) regarding how I was expelled. Perhaps it isn’t as clear as some would like it to be…
To the national secretary;
“I know of no legal process anywhere in the world which doesn’t allow the accused to address directly his accuser and review the evidence, or by the way, allow any appeal against the decision. The rush to get ‘ATTICA’ out means basic fundamental tracts of principle have been ridden roughshod over here. Since I am being allowed no democratic means of changing this state of affairs, you will not be surprised to accept my resignation...
I demand you recall the national conference to discuss this coup. I am disgusted. This is not the Class War I thought I was a member of, and smacks of Scargill Stalinism”
From the diffuse hospital that reactionaries like Paul and Karen have confined me in, writing by candlelight. Thanks Edward Palmer…
I started to reason in my 28th year, and, despite all the best efforts, I have not been able to give up the habit. The traditions I write from are that of Socialist Humanism and the events of class struggles, positive and negative.
Thank you very much for asking how I was feeling, I can see your care for my welfare is non-existent. For the record I am not ill, other than for my Achilles tendon. This is not the first time that mental health has been used to ‘get rid’ of political opponents. Behind the Iron Curtain they used to put political dissidents in Mental Health institutions – Stalinism…
The root of the problem is that I have political disagreements with CW and the AF/Organise, we all badly need to move towards better politics than what passes for politics of the frankly uneducated anarchist leadership. Education here doesn't prioritise official institutional definitions in its hierarchy of judgement; rather the experience of working class history, practice and political theory is the basis of judgement. They clearly are not very good to say the least, but the medicine I am recommending is too harsh for their consumption.
As I am talking in medical idioms then the medicine would be an organisational suicide pill! But, the urge to destroy is a creative urge; I want to break up the organisations and cliques that exist and build something better, freer, more creative, open, caring and human. What there is now - is pathetic, and it’s time it was said openly without those who say this being victimised – something akin to protection for whistleblowing… The smoke billows above Budapest (1956) again, and as Edward Palmer said, ‘its time to staff those barricades again’…
It’s unbelievable that a lot of Chinese whispers, slander and lies emanating from Paul are taken seriously by some politico’s, notably Karen. Without any factual basis, apparently I have been ill for over a decade according to Paul and Karen. This is rubbish and lies.
‘You don’t know what you’re doing’
It also shows up the awful politics of a section of the movement, and the following is in reaction to their recent posts. Karen’s judgement has always been poor – apparently that’s what you get when you read too much ultra leftist rubbish
Karen’s judgement is flawed because he has no evidence for the things he has said and because he has chosen to support ‘A Touch of Toss’/Paul rather than thinking critically for himself. A Touch of Toss is crap, and only those with little class struggle experience would think otherwise, it’s not up to any task. The poverty of the movement is there for all to see – one lame duck defends another.If there ever was a mental health issue then surely this implies some conversation about a mental health issue? None took place, at any time. What Paul is trying to miserably do is exert his hegemony over his baby CW – for his own ends, whatever they are. ‘Stillborn’ would be an accurate description of what CW currently is. Even if you accept the mental health argument currently forwarded, and I do not, then there are tremendous problems with the reactionary political approach used. You may have thought some sensitivity would be in order, to talk reasonably (off line) about any issues. There has been none of this. At best there has been ever increasing blustering, crass comments and reactionary Stalinist methods. If this is their behaviour in a non-crisis situation, then this does not bode well for any revolution that involved these people.
Why Karen and Paul have chosen to spread the mental health issue with glee I do not know. They are not qualified and have no evidence; I am fine.
CW has no political existence – it is living off former glories, it produces nothing of interest. Paul’s CW has done nothing for 10 years and it will continue to do nothing; it’s theoretically empty, no practice and therefore no praxis. As for Karen, who has written/published nothing, done nothing, and has not had his ideas tested anywhere beyond a self-referential clique, then of course I have similar issues with his capability to judge anything. Thankfully I ground and test my ideas beyond ultra left cliques so I know what are good ideas and what are not, it is time that anarchists and/or ultra leftists operated beyond their precious circles of non achievers and entered the real world of praxis.
There have been a couple of demands for ‘what I do’ and ‘to do something’. I have been preparing the ground for the growth of an autonomous class struggle movement. Amongst other things soon a magazine will be printed which will directly and indirectly show up the pathetic and stale Left/@’s – they know who they are; their time in command has been, done nothing, had no effect, and gone.
Now is the time to move into new territory found in the true realm of freedom, the ever growing circulation of struggles during praxis - towards autonomy.
Appendix
From one of the documents (a resignation letter from a comrade) regarding how I was expelled. Perhaps it isn’t as clear as some would like it to be…
To the national secretary;
“I know of no legal process anywhere in the world which doesn’t allow the accused to address directly his accuser and review the evidence, or by the way, allow any appeal against the decision. The rush to get ‘ATTICA’ out means basic fundamental tracts of principle have been ridden roughshod over here. Since I am being allowed no democratic means of changing this state of affairs, you will not be surprised to accept my resignation...
I demand you recall the national conference to discuss this coup. I am disgusted. This is not the Class War I thought I was a member of, and smacks of Scargill Stalinism”
Similar threads
