A thank you to Brexiteers.

[ska invita]

What liberties do you think we have gained (or have yet to gain) by the UK leaving the EU?

my posts on this thread were in good faith

Benefits of Brexit

Can some of Urban's posters give us the benefits of Brexit? I'm struggling to see any. Preferably tangible ones, not vague ideological ones.

www.urban75.net

 

[Border Reiver]

40 years a citizen with a UK passport.

Even more sadly the state pension is not a contract line a private pension. Government can just change the rules even after you have started receiving it. Should never have been structured like that.

 

[brogdale]

It is despicable and indicative of the cunt who runs the show at that department, but it's hardly Brexit, just the same shitty, racist behaviour that lead to Windrush.

It's both, isn't it?
Without Brexit, they'd be no UK Government EU Settlement Scheme.
Attempting to absolve Brexit on the basis that something similar happened previously doesn't seem very convincing.

 

[MickiQ]

my posts on this thread were in good faith

Benefits of Brexit

Can some of Urban's posters give us the benefits of Brexit? I'm struggling to see any. Preferably tangible ones, not vague ideological ones.

www.urban75.net

Fair point, you were wrong but can't really blame someone for not being able to predict the future.

 

[ska invita]

Fair point, you were wrong but can't really blame someone for not being able to predict the future.

that thread is from two months ago

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's both, isn't it?
Without Brexit, they'd be no UK Government EU Settlement Scheme.
Attempting to absolve Brexit on the basis that something similar happened previously doesn't seem very convincing.

Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.

 

[MickiQ]

that thread is from two months ago

Apologies for not noticing the date, I just assumed that was pre-Brexit but I can't imagine either of those things a remote possibility in the current political climate.

 

[ska invita]

Apologies for not noticing the date, I just assumed that was pre-Brexit but I can't imagine either of those things a remote possibility in the current political climate.

not sure what you are referring to, but these things have already happened:

Common Agricultural Policy - gone
State Aid rules (sort of - seems to me there are still competition mechanisms in place under the post-Brexit arrangement which could be acted on - a very much untested)
Breakup of the union (bit of a stretch to include here though tbh, its not reliant on Brexit at all, though is accelerating it now)

"Not being part of an apparently ever closer political, economic, diplomatic and military union" is a really good one, though it is far from certain what the near future of the EU is . Good reason to believe it is going to continue to centralise.

A layer of unelected bureaucracy has been removed, and a bureaucracy with a neoliberal agenda and power at that.
Its got to be good for democracy.

On immigration we now have a classist points based system. I hate it with a passion, but many pro Brexiters love it, and would say it is a positive outcome

 

[MickiQ]

We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.

 

[bimble]

Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.

as they say in america 'the cruely is the point', it's not just incompetence.
Same with this shit. Just don't usually get it on front page of the Guardian cos its not happening to Italians.

Handcuffed, detained, denied medicine: EU citizens’ UK border ordeals

Travellers caught up in extension of ‘hostile environment’ policy tell of being made to feel like criminals

www.theguardian.com

 

[gosub]

Meanwhile, Michel Barnier, EU’s chief Brexit negotiator is making a run for president of France, his big idea is to ban all immigration in to the EU for up to five years, including family reunions.

Tbf His best g idea is there not being a second round Presidential election between Macron and Le Pen

 

[Artaxerxes]

We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.

[scene missing]

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

as they say in america 'the cruely is the point', it's not just incompetence.
Same with this shit. Just don't usually get it on front page of the Guardian cos its not happening to Italians.

Handcuffed, detained, denied medicine: EU citizens’ UK border ordeals

Travellers caught up in extension of ‘hostile environment’ policy tell of being made to feel like criminals

www.theguardian.com

It is horrific, but that article doesn't explain why they were refused entry, except the Estonian woman who sounds like she was evasive as to her reasons for entry. Ordinarily a woman from France wouldn't have any issues entering the UK, hundreds of people arrive each day with no issue, so would be interested to know why she was refused and detained for a week.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It is despicable and indicative of the cunt who runs the show at that department, but it's hardly Brexit, just the same shitty, racist behaviour that lead to Windrush.

Let's be clear, she was part of the leave campaign, as were the tipping point posters, it's 100% what brexit is.

 

[brogdale]

Well of course without Brexit there wouldn't be the settlement scheme, but the fact that the Home Office sends out scattergun missives such as this is a much deeper-rooted problem than leaving a political union with our neighbours. The whole department is not fit for purpose and always seems to be headed by utterly despicable arseholes.

Yes, but Brexit and the consequent, inevitable Settlement scheme have clearly opened another opportunity for the HO to pursue its hostile environment policy. To say, as you did but it's hardly Brexit, probably wouldn't convince those affected, and looks a little like another instance of those knee-jerk, instinctive defences/excuses for Brexit that mirror the doomster, remainiac sky-falling in brigade.

 

[editor]

Yeah, Patel’s department has sent a shitload of these out, cos they are nasty cunts like their boss. Whilst annoying and nasty, it’s hardly world ending, a photo of your passport emailed to them is all it takes, about 2 minutes.

There's all sorts of reasons why the above task could take considerably longer than 2 minutes or - for some people - not be a job they can do without help.

 

[two sheds]

And it's not just those 2 minutes - you're going to be (probably not sleeping properly and) wondering whether they'll fuck you over and throw you out of the country until they confirm you can stay. Anyone know how long that takes?

 

[bimble]

If they hadn't buggered off in time this applying for settled status would've been required from my mum. It would have been really hard for her to gather the required paperwork, to prove that she'd lived here for decades, and the whole process and months of uncertainty would have completely freaked them both out, in their 70s.
Even emailing a pic of her passport (if she's had a british one which she never did bother to try to get) would be an adventure that I'd probably have to talk her through as patiently as possible. Am just very happy they left in good time.

 

[The39thStep]

Must say that the amount of support ( funded by both the Home Office and the Portuguese SEF ) for help with residency here has been excellent . Websites in English , videos in English , dedicated Facebook page , English speakers on the end of a phone and a charity/ voluntary group who will go to peoples houses help with documents arrange appointments for those who aren’t computer literate or have transport issues.
Simple little things about proving you have been here as evidence like cash point receipts or shopping receipts etc .
Also extended all deadlines due to covid .
You still get people on Facebook groups giving the wrong advice or paying for solicitors to do it .

 

[brogdale]

Must say that the amount of support ( funded by both the Home Office and the Portuguese SEF ) for help with residency here has been excellent . Websites in English , videos in English , dedicated Facebook page , English speakers on the end of a phone and a charity/ voluntary group who will go to peoples houses help with documents arrange appointments for those who aren’t computer literate or have transport issues.
Simple little things about proving you have been here as evidence like cash point receipts or shopping receipts etc .
Also extended all deadlines due to covid .
You still get people on Facebook groups giving the wrong advice or paying for solicitors to do it .

Sounds like one:nil to the supra state, then?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And it's not just those 2 minutes - you're going to be (probably not sleeping properly and) wondering whether they'll fuck you over and throw you out of the country until they confirm you can stay. Anyone know how long that takes?

Yep. There's no age cut-off on this, as far as I'm aware. I know for sure that my old mum would be in a total mess if she had to do something like this.

AgeUK does say this

If you receive either the New State Pension or the basic State Pension and are currently in the UK, you should be offered settled status without needing to provide further information about your residence.

But I don't know how much I trust them (the Home Office, not AgeUK), and what if you're a vulnerable person who doesn't claim a UK pension?

Bottom line is that any scheme like this will see people falling through the cracks a la Windrush. That's just what happens, so it's pretty empty to bang on about how easy they've made it.

 

[The39thStep]

Sounds like one:nil to the supra state, then?

First time I’ve ever heard Portugal called a supra state tbh . All joint funded by the U.K. and Portugal .

 

[bimble]

It is horrific, but that article doesn't explain why they were refused entry, except the Estonian woman who sounds like she was evasive as to her reasons for entry. Ordinarily a woman from France wouldn't have any issues entering the UK, hundreds of people arrive each day with no issue, so would be interested to know why she was refused and detained for a week.

I don't know but from this it looks like she might have been handcuffed & locked up because she had a job interview.

EU to ask UK to respect citizens’ rights after mistreatment scandals

Exclusive: Message to Boris Johnson comes after citizens with UK job interviews say they were locked up

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I don't know but from this it looks like she might have been handcuffed & locked up because she had a job interview.

EU to ask UK to respect citizens’ rights after mistreatment scandals

Exclusive: Message to Boris Johnson comes after citizens with UK job interviews say they were locked up

www.theguardian.com

I send 100's of people all over the place for job interviews, none yet handcuffed for it, so there really must be more to it than that. Not saying she's some wrong'un, but somewhere a fuck up has happened and it is most likely with the poor sod who was handcuffed. In fact I have just come off the phone from someone who's been told they need a "Spanish Vis Trabajo visa to permit her to work in Spain" - this is bollocks, she is going to Spain to conduct business on behalf of a UK company that has a client in Spain. But had she rolled up and started telling Spanish immigration that she was there to work then she would be denied entry. Just the subtle difference between travelling for business vs work, makes a big difference and easy to cock up your story if not aware...

 

[TopCat]

We're kind of talking at cross purposes here? Sorry if not totally clear. What benefits are we Joe Public likely to get that will compensate for losing Freedom of Movement? Rules on State Aid or the CAP don't really affect the ordinary person on the street.

Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.

 

[editor]

Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.

Any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all workers as a direct result of Brexit?

 

[TopCat]

Any hard evidence that your anecdotal story is happening across the board for all workers as a direct result of Brexit?

Not all workers. Just those who build and make stuff that’s useful and valuable.
Creative types producing adverts and jingles, I have no idea as I shun such people.

 

[MickiQ]

Increased wage rates as companies compete for a workforce that is smaller given no free movement now.
Scaffolder mate for instance is now getting over £200 a day now.

And that's great of course, if you're a skilled worker with an in demand skill then reducing the supply even further is going to push your pay up and good luck to anyone who is taking advantage of that. Brexit isn't universally bad but I suspect the wages for unskilled labour isn't likely to change much if all.

 

[TopCat]

But hey editor I recognise that only certain anecdotal evidence is accepted here on this thread (wild tales of remainer penury).
Here is a link from a company that manages 30,000 construction workers wages.

Skilled labour rates rise a fifth in a year

It is not just materials that are going up in price – labour is too.

www.google.co.uk

 

[TopCat]

And that's great of course, if you're a skilled worker with an in demand skill then reducing the supply even further is going to push your pay up and good luck to anyone who is taking advantage of that. Brexit isn't universally bad but I suspect the wages for unskilled labour isn't likely to change much if all.

Site labour rates are up for skilled and unskilled.