A thank you to Brexiteers.

[bimble]

one sure way of preventing brexit would obvs have been to have a more ethnically diverse population in the first place.
so maybe in the fulness of time it'll all be to the good as the diversification of where our same amount of immigrants come from will lead to a less racist UK.

 

[Karl Masks]

On point 1: the answer is that it is not possible for the UK to ‘defeat’ the racist EU border policy. However, the historic decision to dump the flaccid failing neo-liberal construct means that we are no longer subject to it.

Our relationship to Europe necessitates that. Where once we had influence, to whatever degree, within the EU and thus it's border policies, now we're just rule takers. The EU remains one of the world's most successful trading blocs, Britain has shifted into irrelevance as demonstrated by the US response to a trade deal with us vs one with the EU. These trading relationships will obviously be capitalist in nature, but they are also essential given the world in which we live and not the fantasy island you seem to occupy.

On point 2: huge LoL. Not even sure Talk TB and GB news existed at the time of the referendum but, hey, don’t let that stop you..

They didn't. They have appeared in the post Brexit climate and vociferously peddle pro Leave propaganda of the most extreme kind. Brexit proved fertile ground for this kind of project.

So again: how are we better off outside the EU. So far we have that the EU's border policies are racist. I'm happy to steelman that argument, but you can't explain how leaving changes that. Support for the EU increased after the rest of the world watched us shit into our hands and applaud our own short sightedness. But even so, wanting to remain does not entail support for every EU policy or attitude at all times. The bottom line is you are advocating cutting off our noses with a rusty razor covered in dog shit to spite our faces.

 

[bimble]

Totally worth it though.

Brexit a major cause of UK’s return to austerity, says senior economist

Former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders says leaving EU has ‘permanently damaged’ economy

www.theguardian.com

 

[ska invita]

For old times sake

Is the EU position on Fortress Europe either: #1, one that is imposed unwillingly on countries by EU technocrats, which member states in fact wanted something more open-borderish, or #2 was it an accord pushed by delegates from those sovereign countries to the supranational policy making organs at EU level?

For all intents and purposes it was #2.

At the height of the Syrian+ refugee crisis "The EU" pushed for a common policy on taking in refugees fairly allocated across different member countries, a plan which was utterly rejected by the individual member states, including the UK.
This resulted with Merkel in desperation and political risk to take 1 million refugees in to Germany.

 

[ska invita]

Totally worth it though.

Brexit a major cause of UK’s return to austerity, says senior economist

Former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders says leaving EU has ‘permanently damaged’ economy

www.theguardian.com

So you're on the same side as a senior economist at the BOE are you?
etc

 

[Tanya1982]

Totally worth it though.

Brexit a major cause of UK’s return to austerity, says senior economist

Former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders says leaving EU has ‘permanently damaged’ economy

www.theguardian.com

It was predicted. They said they knew what they were voting for, and that it was a price worth paying and that it wouldn't happen. It was to be champagne and Italian sports cars and German household appliances, complete with cheap wine from Chile and discount shoes from Vietnam. A consumer paradise would begin, but a protectionist one too - and depending on your political position, a socialist paradise freed from global pressure at that. We were to have an NHS firing on all cylinders like never before, rising wages across the board, empowered workers bargaining for ever better conditions, and we'd all generally enjoy rights but no responsibilities, fantasies but no realities, rewards but no risks, and cakes to be eaten over and over again - and all while nothing much would really change.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was predicted. They said they knew what they were voting for, and that it was a price worth paying and that it wouldn't happen. It was to be champagne and Italian sports cars and German household appliances, complete with cheap wine from Chile and shoes from Vietnam. A consumer paradise would begin, but a protectionist one too - and depending on your political position, a socialist paradise freed from global pressure at that. We were to have an NHS firing on all cylinders like never before, rising wages across the board, workers bargaining for even better rights, and we'd enjoy rights but no responsibilities, fantasies but no realities, rewards but no risks, and cakes to be eaten over and over again.

And if you're even a little bit pissed off about any of this, you're a 'remoaner'.

More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.

 

[Tanya1982]

And if you're even a little bit pissed off about any of this, you're a 'remoaner'.

More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.

Never mind. It'll turn round any day now. Just hope a little harder.

 

[TopCat]

Totally worth it though.

Brexit a major cause of UK’s return to austerity, says senior economist

Former Bank of England policymaker Michael Saunders says leaving EU has ‘permanently damaged’ economy

www.theguardian.com

Support capitalism! Support fortress Europe! Waitrose for all!

 

[TopCat]

More than that, it's cos of remoaners that Brexit is going so badly.

Remoaners have no influence. The Tories are fucking up many things, Brexit included.

 

[Pickman's model]

one sure way of preventing brexit would obvs have been to have a more ethnically diverse population in the first place.
so maybe in the fulness of time it'll all be to the good as the diversification of where our same amount of immigrants come from will lead to a less racist UK.

View attachment 351593

for 'diversification' read 'replacement'

 

[bimble]

Support capitalism! Support fortress Europe! Waitrose for all!

lol. What's wrong with Waitrose For All?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

So you're on the same side as a senior economist at the BOE are you?
etc

He seems to be suggesting a 4 point plan to ameliorate the damage:

Rejoin the EU
Import cheap labour
Force the disabled and sick back to work
Education to upskill

A useful guide to what the remain side is fighting for.

 

[Pickman's model]

lol. What's wrong with Waitrose For All?

because everyone should pay waitrose prices

 

[Tanya1982]

To Topcat - Nobody said that, but to go with your hyperbole for a moment, Waitrose for all is certainly more appealing than Waitrose for nobody.

I didn't think you were in favour of open borders for Britain. A couple of weeks ago there was a thread on that, and I don't recall you saying anything much other than that all the Albanian guys you knew were drug dealers who were 'well at it'. Why that had to be said on an immigration thread is anyone's guess, but it definitely doesn't speak to you approving of and believing in higher rates of immigration.

As an example, I could say that the only Rwandan guy I know beats his wife up. That means it would be technically true to say that 'all the Rwandans I know are wife beaters - they're well at it'. It would be technically true, but if I was to phrase it that way, in the context of a discussion about immigration, it would be entirely fair for people to assume that I was actually very thoughtless at best, and racist at worst.

Therefore, it would perhaps surprise them to find a person who'd do that trying to skewer anyone else for racism or xenophobia.

 

[bimble]

He seems to be suggesting a 4 point plan to ameliorate the damage:

Rejoin the EU
Import cheap labour
Force the disabled and sick back to work
Education to upskill

A useful guide to what the remain side is fighting for.

who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.

 

[TopCat]

who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.

The former

 

[bimble]

The former

But why ? Most people in the country think it was a mistake. Remoaners are the majority.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

who is "the remain side" now, in your view, is it a handful of obsessive weirdos or is it the clear & growing majority of the country who now say they think brexit was a mistake? Just checking.

The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.

The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.

Most people recognise that the EU debate is settled and want an economic plan that improves matters. They don’t have a disabling confirmation bias. Unlike remainers.

 

[TopCat]

But why ? Most people in the country think it was a mistake. Remoaners are the majority.

Majority my arse. Voting different today is rather different than wishing to ignore a democratic vote because you don’t agree with it.

 

[Tanya1982]

for 'diversification' read 'replacement'

Why?

 

[bimble]

The former: a dwindling number of obsessive weirdos who view everything through the prism of Brexit.

The majority of the country recognise a) that a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit and that c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse.

I think you’ve got it upside down. Nobody is saying everything is solely the fault of brexit, including that banker. But there’s a dwindling number of weirdos who are trying to deny the fact that brexit has made things significantly worse.

 

[inva]

For old times sake

Is the EU position on Fortress Europe either: #1, one that is imposed unwillingly on countries by EU technocrats, which member states in fact wanted something more open-borderish, or #2 was it an accord pushed by delegates from those sovereign countries to the supranational policy making organs at EU level?

For all intents and purposes it was #2.

At the height of the Syrian+ refugee crisis "The EU" pushed for a common policy on taking in refugees fairly allocated across different member countries, a plan which was utterly rejected by the individual member states, including the UK.
This resulted with Merkel in desperation and political risk to take 1 million refugees in to Germany.

I think your two propositions make a false distinction. If we can dismiss criticism of the EU for Fortress Europe as merely a reflection of the political balance of the member states, then what exactly can we criticise the EU for or for that matter credit it with?

As this piece by Kenan Malik points out:

Consider the case of Spain and the EU. Until 1991, Spain had an open border with North Africa. Migrant workers would come to Spain for seasonal work and then return home. In 1986, the newly democratic Spain joined the EU. As part of its obligations as a EU member, it had to close its North African borders. The closing of the borders did not stop migrant workers trying to enter Spain. Instead, they took to small boats to cross the Mediterranean and smuggle themselves in. This was the start of the ‘migration crisis’.

Spain had exercised national sovereignty by keeping its borders open. Closed borders were imposed by Brussels.

I don't think this, which goes to the heart of central EU agreements, can really be waved away like that.

 

[bimble]

Majority my arse. Voting different today is rather different than wishing to ignore a democratic vote because you don’t agree with it.

Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.

 

[Tanya1982]

I think your two propositions make a false distinction. If we can dismiss criticism of the EU for Fortress Europe as merely a reflection of the political balance of the member states, then what exactly can we criticise the EU for or for that matter credit it with?

As this piece by Kenan Malik points out:

I don't think this, which goes to the heart of central EU agreements, can really be waved away like that.

Or Spain fully exercised its national sovereignty by choosing to enter a new agreement, knowing that made a prior agreement untenable.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think you’ve got it upside down. Nobody is saying everything is solely the fault of brexit, including that banker. But there’s a dwindling number of weirdos who are trying to deny the fact that brexit has made things significantly worse.

Yeah, there are some leave supporters who deny that. But, again, most of us recognise that a) a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse and d) the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently.

 

[TopCat]

Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.

I’m chilled. It’s remainers who froth a lot.

 

[Tanya1982]

Nobody is trying to overthrow the will of the people ffs, it’s over, you won, relax.

Yes, exactly, that's what's so odd about that line. Nobody is trying to ignore it - chance would be a fine thing. On the contrary, we've lived every last day and detail of it for the past six years, and continue to. Only Brexiters think it's still 2016. They got their Brexit - a full Brexit, this is it, its what they wanted and what they got - this is Brexit.

 

[TopCat]

Yes, exactly, that's what's so odd about that line. Nobody is trying to ignore it - chance would be a fine thing. On the contrary, we've lived every last day and detail of it for the past six years, and continue to. Only Brexiters think it's still 2016. They got their Brexit - a full Brexit, this is it, its what they wanted and what they got - this is Brexit.

Drivel

 

[bimble]

Yeah, there are some leave supporters who deny that. But, again, most of us recognise that a) a multiplicity of factors are at work b) that the structural economic problems that Britain faces pre-date Brexit c) that the Tories have botched Brexit and Truss’ budget lit the fuse and d) the argument for Brexit remains what it always was: an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently.

The argument for brexit is "an opportunity to look at an under-performing economy in a new light and to do things differently"?
How long does this remain the case? Is it.. for ever and ever, because even if for the next 100 years the opportunity is actually used to make things worse instead of better it's still an opportunity?
That would mean there is no possible outcome that would make you feel it had been a bad idea after all, which i get why that might be nice to think that way.