A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Pickman's model]

Where are you getting this figure of one month/six weeks from? (apologies if the source has been quoted and I've missed it)

presumably the season for vegetable picking

 

[The39thStep]

This in Lidl is not a joke.

View attachment 286054

It's a jar of chickpeas and a tiny packet of spices. Lidl in Spain also has houmous ready-made


What Lidl doesn't have anymore in Spain is Cheddar, Not Irish either so perhaps nothing to do with Brexit

No tahini paste?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

What's the chances of any of those happening?

Higher than rejoining the EU and tempting cheap labour back during a pandemic. More ethical, sustainable and fair too

 

[two sheds]

There always used to be a pool of people travelling round who'd do picking. Presumably pickers coming in from elsewhere in the EU priced them out?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

i think you're operating on some cosmic level of optimism tbh.

Says one of the leading ‘let’s rejoin the EU’ space cadets. To be fair that’s more delusional than optimistic I suppose

 

[The39thStep]

Incredible that we have adults on here who think that seasonal vegetables are harvested only in a month to six week period in the U.K.

 

[bimble]

Says one of the leading ‘let’s rejoin the EU’ space cadets. To be fair that’s more delusional than optimistic I suppose

i have never once said that though ? i think you're mixing me up with somebody else.

 

[Supine]

Incredible that we have adults on here who think that seasonal vegetables are harvested only in a month to six week period in the U.K.

It is a seasonal job - which you must acknowledge adds some recruitment challenges. Or do you have an answer to recruitment you could share with our farmers (over and above saying pay more).

 

[Smokeandsteam]

i have never once said that though ? i think you're mixing me up with somebody else.

So you don’t want to rejoin the EU and you think social democracy is ‘cosmic optimism’. What exactly are you proposing then?

 

[bimble]

Where are you getting this figure of one month/six weeks from? (apologies if the source has been quoted and I've missed it)

It depends on the fruit / vegetable, some like strawberries (grown in tunnels etc) have longer seasons, many are shorter.

I just had a look for jobs, this seems typical.
you need a car as well

 

[bimble]

So you don’t want to rejoin the EU and you think social democracy is ‘cosmic optimism’. What exactly are you proposing then?

I'm sorry i didn't realise this was a thread for Solutions-people only.
For a little while now i've been thinking that an unintended and maybe counter-intuitive consequence of Brexit will be a drastic reduction in the amount of food that this country produces, and an increase in our dependence on imported food, thats all. I don't have a solution for it.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm sorry i didn't realise this was a thread for Solutions-people only.

Its not just that you don’t do solutions, it’s that you dismiss out of hand any that are put forward.

That’s up to you, but as a set of politics it’s utterly disabling. A bit like continuity remain: no ideas, solutions, demands or attempts to collectivise and organise: just a lot of air. They come over as a lot like the middle aged whiners they rail against.

 

[The39thStep]

It is a seasonal job - which you must acknowledge adds some recruitment challenges. Or do you have an answer to recruitment you could share with our farmers (over and above saying pay more).

Ah not a month to six weeks one then?

'our' farmers lol . Up the NFU.

 

[Supine]

Ah not a month to six weeks one then?

'our' farmers lol . Up the NFU.

I don’t know who said it was. Just pointing out regardless of time seasonal employment is not easy. Whereas you seem to think it is just a pay rise that’s required.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I don’t know who said it was.

It was Bimble

 

[bimble]

On really big farms with lots of crops ripe at different times i'm sure there's longer periods of work available. Plenty of places just want you for a couple of weeks or a month though, and i don't think any harvesting jobs are full time, apart from maybe mushrooms (?)

 

[The39thStep]

I don’t know who said it was. Just pointing out regardless of time seasonal employment is not easy. Whereas you seem to think it is just a pay rise that’s required.

Well, 'seem to think ' in your head perhaps. I'm sure seasonal recruitment has its challenges but surely they are not impassable?

 

[Yossarian]

Here are 5 simple steps that could be taken and which anyone with even a casual relationship with economic justice should support:

1. A new Agriculture Wages and Labour Board which is made up equally of worker representatives, bosses and Government. This would set minimum wage levels, terms and conditions, pensions etc.
2. Underpinning this would be local tripartite planning groups who would set rates for the particular conditions for the local economy.
3. Both bodies would draw up plans for seasonal work and be tasked with planning sustainable labour levels throughout the year. This should include new apprenticeships with guaranteed jobs at union rates at the end of it.
4. These bodies would be set an annual target for growth of output each year
5. A Skills strategy would identify foreseeable shortages over the long and medium term and plan to fix this

If there is still a residual need for more labour this should be addressed by planned inward migration with workers covered by the same terms as above, invited to join the union on day one and supported to find housing etc.

Sounds good to me - of course, if there had been a government in place over the last 40 years willing to regulate the labour market this heavily, the conditions that led to Brexit might not have arisen.

 

[bimble]

Its not just that you don’t do solutions, it’s that you dismiss out of hand any that are put forward.

That’s up to you, but as a set of politics it’s utterly disabling. A bit like continuity remain: no ideas, solutions, demands or attempts to collectivise and organise: just a lot of air. They come over as a lot like the middle aged whiners they rail against.

You're right, i'm even depressing my own self with this thing about brexit = much less locally grown food & much more imported food. Just can't think of a conceivable way round it tbh.

 

[andysays]

It depends on the fruit / vegetable, some like strawberries (grown in tunnels etc) have longer seasons, many are shorter.

I just had a look for jobs, this seems typical.
you need a car as well
View attachment 286096

OK, so that appears to be based on hiring people to pick just one crop, possibly because that farm only produces one crop, which is increasingly common.

The actual fruit and vegetable harvesting period in Britain is much, much longer. I have stuff ready to harvest on my allotment for at least six months of the year, and it's quite possible for commercial market gardeners growing some produce under cover to be able to have fresh vegetables ready to harvest 12 months of the year.

You seem to have swallowed the idea that vegetable production inevitably requires an army of cheap short term workers from abroad, possibly because all you really know about the subject is what you read from employers who have an interest in continuing the current dysfunctional system.

 

[Johnny Doe]

I popped into a local boozer yesteray, my alcohol-free beers were in plentiful supply, but the barmaid was fending off complaints that draft Moretti was off and not expected back on anytime soon 'due to driver shortages'....

 

[bimble]

You seem to have swallowed the idea that vegetable production inevitably requires an army of cheap short term workers from abroad, possibly because all you really know about the subject is what you read from employers who have an interest in continuing the current dysfunctional system.

That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.

It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.

Or we would need proper protectionist agricultural policies, so supermarkets couldn't just buy the cheaper things, which is a possible solution but looks like the opposite is happening.

 

[Pickman's model]

That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.

It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.

Or we would need proper protectionist agricultural policies, so supermarkets couldn't just buy the cheaper things, which is a possible solution but looks like the opposite is happening.

you'll be lucky if you see british-grown gooseberries in the shops, i'm told the americans take pretty much all we can grow

 

[andysays]

That might be true. I hope you're right. I do know almost nothing about agriculture, though have just grown my first tomato.

It's just that, even if this country successfully created a well paid (domestic but mobile) seasonal workforce to do these jobs then the next question would be about people being given the choice (?) to buy that British-grown produce instead of the shelves being full instead of cheaper stuff from abroad, where food's still being picked & packed by bulgarian/romanian migrant workers.
How many people people would be able to choose that option idk.
Or we would need proper protectionist agricultural policies, which is a possible solution but looks like the opposite is happening.

This is possibly not the thread to discuss it in detail, but the shake up in the labour market which is the result of Brexit and Covid could also provide an opportunity for a shake up of fruit and vegetable production in Britain.

If government support was available, a lot more small to medium sized market gardens could be set up, which made a virtue out of growing a much wider range of produce, available over a much wider time period, providing employment over most if not all of the year, and with local distribution through Farmers' Markets and box schemes rather than the current system which is completely dominated by large supermarket chains.

There would potentially be significant social and environmental benefits as well.

This is unlikely to happen, partly because there won't be any government support and partly because so many people like you seem to accept the idea that the system literally can only work the way it has done in recent years.

 

[bimble]

.. people like you seem to accept the idea that the system literally can only work the way it has done in recent years.

Don’t blame me. I’d be all up for your idea. I buy veg boxes from a brilliant place just down the road, that grows all sorts of things. I’m quite rich though that’s why I can do it, It’s expensive. Without massive government help this is not remotely going to happen at scale as you say.

 

[krtek a houby]

you'll be lucky if you see british-grown gooseberries in the shops, i'm told the americans take pretty much all we can grow

Don't let them near the NHS, whatever happens

 

[andysays]

Don’t blame me. I’d be all up for your idea. I buy veg boxes from a brilliant place just down the road, that grows all sorts of things. I’m quite rich though that’s why I can do it, It’s expensive. Without massive government help this is not remotely going to happen at scale as you say.

It's not your consumer choices that concern me, it's your apparent unthinking acceptance of pro capitalist status quo arguments and your frequently vacuous contributions to debate, like the idea that vegetables can only be harvested during a six week period, supported by a recruitment advert for strawberry pickers.

Maybe I'm just unreasonably grumpy today, but I really can't be bothered to engage with this nonsense. Maybe another time...

 

[bimble]

you are always grumpy but that’s ok.
You are free to pretend that I said all vegetables in Britain are harvested in the same 6 week period if it helps.

 

[bimble]

I’ve been banging on about it because if anyone was going to tell me that i’m wrong in my prediction (that there will, unless something extremely surprising happens, be much less British-produced food in post-brexit Britain) it would be a brexiteer on here, but so far nobody has.

I don’t want to be right about that & haven’t been doing it to wind people up. Will stop going on about it though. Time will tell.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I noticed HEMA shut down in the UK, it’s billed as a change of strategy on the website but given its Dutch and cheap as fuck I have to assume brexit played a role in it alongside the whammy of covid.