JimW
支那暗杀团
Couldn't come at a better time with all this global warming about.
A thank you to Brexiteers.
- Thread starter MrSki
- Start date
Colin Hunt
Active Member
Honestly I don't mind either way. This thread is going to be a lot less fast moving now that meat man is banned. Although perhaps when the new Brexit forum gets created there'll be space for a thread on workers rights.
Honestly the thing that shook me the most about Loose Meat is finding out we shop at the same supermarket. I was wondering where all the rocket had gone.
The EU isn't all bad on workers' rights, certainly when compared to the mess that we've created here. However, in terms of collective bargaining and the right to strike the EU has certainly been bad for workers' rights, which was what I meant when I said that the question wasn't relative.
In all member states, the creation of a two-tier system where industrial action directed at foreign companies was treated differently to action directed at domestic companies placed trade unions at a massive disadvantage and undoubtedly had a chilling effect on the exercise of their rights (it also placed domestic firms at a disadvantage to multinational firms with bases in other EU member states). And when given the chance to intervene directly in national laws the EU hasn't merely worked against collective bargaining rights, but has presided over their decimation. Collective agreement coverage in Greece fell by over 80% as a direct result of the bailout terms dictated to them by the EU which massively decentralised collective bargaining, and several other countries enacted similar attacks on collective bargaining due to EU pressure or edict. I tend to believe that Germany acts through EU institutions to impose neoliberal reforms on other EU states to prolong its own struggling social compact with organised labour, but perhaps that's a discussion for another day.
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it's a bit of a waste of their newly invented time travel that the EU are going back to 2016 to arrange punishments for a Brexit yet to happen.
but well done them convincing the Cameron government to be onboard with the proposal. makes the situation properly funny.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
there's a dedicated thread for this subject
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Cool. Will repost.
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Surely a forum is needed
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Good news boppers
The hope that springs eternal springs right up your backside
The hope that springs eternal springs right up your backside
Relaunched Brexit Party has bank account shut down
Reform Party leader Richard Tice says the decision by Metro Bank was 'outrageous' and 'based on politics'
www.telegraph.co.uk
andysays
Love and solidarity
Finally, some good Brexit news...Relaunched Brexit Party has bank account shut down
Reform Party leader Richard Tice says the decision by Metro Bank was 'outrageous' and 'based on politics'
Welsh haulier facing biggest crisis in 50 years in 'perfect storm'
It's the name on the back of many a lorry you pass on the motorway, but Owens Group is facing a huge challenge caused by Brexit
Probably just down to Covid
bimble
floofy
Been wondering about something.
If there are fewer people now for the same number of jobs, as I think everyone agrees is the case, then it’s great if wages go up but what then? I mean there’ll still be fewer people to do all the jobs so what happens, in time the jobs (and so the amount of businesses in the UK) will shrink to meet the reduced number of workers right? Is that necessarily a bad thing idk.
If there are fewer people now for the same number of jobs, as I think everyone agrees is the case, then it’s great if wages go up but what then? I mean there’ll still be fewer people to do all the jobs so what happens, in time the jobs (and so the amount of businesses in the UK) will shrink to meet the reduced number of workers right? Is that necessarily a bad thing idk.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're assuming the same conditions obtain and do not vary over time. But obvs things do change.
The population is growing. Some time ago it became clear that non-eu immigration was largely replacing EU immigration, and when travel is easier I anticipate that this is likely to continue. The only thing which has allowed this government to get anywhere near the auld goal of reducing net migration to below 100,000 has been the pandemic. And that's not going to last forever. So this notion of there being a reduced number of workers is rather a non-starter, esp in light of the growing number of 18-year olds in the next few years
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mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
'Shrinking to fit' can't really happen; unless eg. fewer goods are transported, fewer people become ill, or need care. Nationally, only about 8.5% of Adult Social Care workers are (have been) EU citizens. The problem IMO is not replacing those who leave after Brexit; the problem is that there's been a staff shortage for years. Wages have not risen to attract staff. Really the issue remains, that there are jobs people do not want to do.
Brexit may exacerbate that (seems likely to), but in Social Care for example, Brexit is less of an issue than than people's attitudes to doing care work. Nobody i speak to cites wages as the reason they wouldn't do care work, it's always a version of "Oh I couldn't do that!"
I'm not hopeful that wages will rise in my sector - and even if they do, I don't believe that will be enough to overcome whatever it is that stops people working in social care. Care pays the same as bar or shop work, broadly - more, in many cases. Bars and shops may now begin struggling to find staff, but they haven't till now .. social care has been struggling for years. Wages aren't the issue IMO, not in my line of work.
Brexit may exacerbate that (seems likely to), but in Social Care for example, Brexit is less of an issue than than people's attitudes to doing care work. Nobody i speak to cites wages as the reason they wouldn't do care work, it's always a version of "Oh I couldn't do that!"
I'm not hopeful that wages will rise in my sector - and even if they do, I don't believe that will be enough to overcome whatever it is that stops people working in social care. Care pays the same as bar or shop work, broadly - more, in many cases. Bars and shops may now begin struggling to find staff, but they haven't till now .. social care has been struggling for years. Wages aren't the issue IMO, not in my line of work.
andysays
Love and solidarity
It's also not just about numbers.
A significant amount of EU migration was workers coming here for a few years to earn more than they could in their home countries, then returning home.
This has resulted in some industries restructuring to be based primarily on relying on and exploiting these temporary workers, frequently with conditions that longer term workers wouldn't accept.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There's also where investment goes, so if there's a lot of money flowing into say adult social care or the NHS or some high tech thing then there will be more jobs in those areas. - this being supplementary to your post. It's nonsense to say, as bimble does, that the number of jobs will tend towards the number of workers as this ignores the pull factor that full employment has, drawing workers from abroad for example or other groups entering the labour market
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Sort of post full employment scenario which the UK has never achieved
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
Yes, and no. Care companies still post profits in the millions of pounds. The Priory Group was sold last year for £2bn, iirc, and a local company who own a mere 6 homes made £1million profit in 2017-18 (I checked once after working there for a few shifts and being appalled at some of the things I saw)
I believe there is plenty of growth potential in SC wage structures, but at the moment it's mainly bound up in directors' bonuses and shareholder dividends. This creates the 'market conditions' to which then charities and other nonprofit organisations fit their business plans, and LAs budget for.
bimble
floofy
Really?
I don't understand. The new points based immigration system will not reduce immigration you're saying? We will simply replace the EU workers with people from further afield and carry on as we were?
But don't we have a significantly ageing population ?
Not trying to be annoying I just don't follow your reasoning.
Tice should probably have kept quiet instead of running to the press to basically admit they’d been abusing problems for the bank’s anti-money laundering enforcement.
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Ah, interesting, the place I worked for was a wee bit third sector “an industrial and provident society” I think so perhaps a different approach although all the C suite were on in excess of 100k 12 years ago so maybe not
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The U.K. has said it will allow >5,000,000 Hong Kongers to move here, cos racist, obvs, mostly they will be younger age groups, not all by any means, but most.
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bimble
floofy
Thats alright then.
But basically thats the idea, everything continues much the same we just keep up the same level of immigration but not from the EU?
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I don’t imagine the Hong Kongers will be here for a couple of years then scooting back to China with the loot, they’ll be here for good.
ska invita
back on the other side
Have to add;
Lots of people's real world wages have been going down for years now, mine included. Too soon to call rising wages A Thing. Even a 1k joining bonus isn't a rising wage, it's a bribe
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