A celebration of Feminism - as a female what has it meant for you?

[JudithB]

I think this might be the sixth thread now running regarding feminism. I cannot say enough times how thrilled and honoured I am to find a place where women are engaging in topics that concern them.

Let's devote a thread to the sisterhood and what feminism has done and continues to shape and support you as a female person.

When I first discovered feminism it was a light bulb moment of realisation that I am a person and a human being that is separate from men. That there is a movement out there for me and people like me. I devoured what I could and looked for like minded women. It was a fantastic feeling to think we could change the world into something fairer for all by bringing the needs of women into sharp focus. I could be unashamedly female.

Soon I found I was at odds with what we call third wave feminism. My understanding of intersectionality appeared misplaced. I understood it as the intersection of black feminism and and civil rights, not as it is often now interpreted.

I began to feel more uncomfortable with my sisters who expected me to agree that prostitution is work and that stripping and porn are empowering. Although I did not disengage the light definitely dimmed for me and I found myself less and less willing to speak up.

And then something started to happen and is still happening. Women are starting to meet again in great numbers. Articles are being published and boundaries are being pushed.

Women are starting to wake up once again even Dworkin is becoming popular to a new audience. (If you haven't read her, please do.)

Perhaps the horror of watching the roll back of women's rights in the US and the knowledge of the continued exploitation of women in other parts of the world (eg surrogacy) is making us we realise how new and tenuous our freedoms are.

 

[Edie]

I hesitate to say this as I don’t particularly want to fight this corner as my views have changed in the last decade or so. But whatever else people think about sex work it most definitely is work. I don’t think it’s empowering but it’s an exchange of services for money and that’s what work is. I don’t think it should be glorified or promoted, but I don’t think it should be demonised either.

For me in general the biggest thing women give me is strength and solidarity. Especially as a single Mum I know my close mates have my back every time. Just a phone call away. Then, other women just get it. They have an implicit understanding of what it means to be a woman, the pressures and fears and the joys. There’s a closeness with other women that I don’t get with men.

 

[polly]

I hesitate to say this as I don’t particularly want to fight this corner as my views have changed in the last decade or so. But whatever else people think about sex work it most definitely is work. I don’t think it’s empowering but it’s an exchange of services for money and that’s what work is. I don’t think it should be glorified or promoted, but I don’t think it should be demonised either.

Absolutely this. The sex workers (I thought 'prostitution' was a word we were avoiding now?) certainly shouldn't be demonised.

 

[JudithB]

I hesitate to say this as I don’t particularly want to fight this corner as my views have changed in the last decade or so. But whatever else people think about sex work it most definitely is work. I don’t think it’s empowering but it’s an exchange of services for money and that’s what work is. I don’t think it should be glorified or promoted, but I don’t think it should be demonised either.

Coming to a thread near us soon
I am in agreement with what you say but from a slightly different angle. Semantics

 

[polly]

For me in general the biggest thing women give me is strength and solidarity. Especially as a single Mum I know my close mates have my back every time. Just a phone call away. Then, other women just get it. They have an implicit understanding of what it means to be a woman, the pressures and fears and the joys. There’s a closeness with other women that I don’t get with men.

And this

 

[JudithB]

For me in general the biggest thing women give me is strength and solidarity. Especially as a single Mum I know my close mates have my back every time. Just a phone call away. Then, other women just get it. They have an implicit understanding of what it means to be a woman, the pressures and fears and the joys. There’s a closeness with other women that I don’t get with men.

So much this!

 

[ElizabethofYork]

So much this!

Sorry to be argumentative, but that's not necessarily feminism, is it? It's just being women.

 

[JudithB]

Sorry to be argumentative, but that's not necessarily feminism, is it? It's just being women.

My interpretation of feminism is that it is the acknowledgement that women are humans. If that manifests itself on this thread as a celebration of sisterhood that's fine by me.

I would like to hear how you celebrate feminism and how it has shaped you

 

[Edie]

Sorry to be argumentative, but that's not necessarily feminism, is it? It's just being women.

I really nearly said that myself ElizabethofYork but then I wasn’t sure.

It was the first thing that came into my mind in answer to the question about feminism. That solidarity.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

My interpretation of feminism is that it is the acknowledgement that women are humans. If that manifests itself on this thread as a celebration of sisterhood that's fine by me.

I would like to hear how you celebrate feminism and how it has shaped you

I celebrate it in my everyday life by being confident and assertive. When I first started work, back in the early 80s, women working in offices were seen as pretty airheads who made tea and typed letters for the male bosses. Things have changed so very much now thanks to the efforts of feminists over the years.

 

[campanula]

I was an active feminist in the 70s, when we had clear positions regarding the validity of women's work as mothers, the politics of childcare, the blight of male violence - ranging from the sly dig and mean domestic put down, to the utter annihilation of Cruise,(Greenham Common| into female literacy and mortality rates, FGM and the overwhelming need for women only spaces...and by the 80s, we had some. I worked for Women's Aid - revelatory since childcare was part of my salary along with flexible hours. Also, a women's educational resource, where I taught woodwork, was a member of a women's video collective...a terrific leap for a young working class women with 2 kids. Gave me confidence to go to university where I lost the plot in a welter of po-mo obfuscation (although it was generally suggested that I was a bit too thick but hey...)
And although we agree - that being supportive is just being women - well that is feminism too...because I am glad to be around people who don't need to win a point all the time, who were, for one reason or another, socialised to be non-confrontational, kind, nurturing. It is just so much more...peaceful...and I have done my very best to bring up all my kids to be kind, co-operative and unselfish...not really values embraced by capitalism either...but there you go.

 

[JudithB]

I celebrate it in my everyday life by being confident and assertive. When I first started work, back in the early 80s, women working in offices were seen as pretty airheads who made tea and typed letters for the male bosses. Things have changed so very much now thanks to the efforts of feminists over the years.

This might be more for the gender pay-gap thread but I remember the same. All the big male bosses with their little secretaries outside their offices. I was one of the "dolly-birds". AND we used to smoke at work and start drinking at lunchtime!

I remember being in a meeting and one of the management walked in and asked me to get the coffees. He was a little embarassed when advised by another of the males that I was chairing the meeting. I was the only woman in the room and my goodness the testosterone and dick swinging was unbelievable.

I work well with all sexes but now I get to choose my clients, females are my favourites. Go sisterhood!

 

[JudithB]

I was an active feminist in the 70s, when we had clear positions regarding the validity of women's work as mothers, the politics of childcare, the blight of male violence - ranging from the sly dig and mean domestic put down, to the utter annihilation of Cruise,(Greenham Common| into female literacy and mortality rates, FGM and the overwhelming need for women only spaces...and by the 80s, we had some. I worked for Women's Aid - revelatory since childcare was part of my salary along with flexible hours. Also, a women's educational resource, where I taught woodwork, was a member of a women's video collective...a terrific leap for a young working class women with 2 kids. Gave me confidence to go to university where I lost the plot in a welter of po-mo obfuscation (although it was generally suggested that I was a bit too thick but hey...)
And although we agree - that being supportive is just being women - well that is feminism too...because I am glad to be around people who don't need to win a point all the time, who were, for one reason or another, socialised to be non-confrontational, kind, nurturing. It is just so much more...peaceful...and I have done my very best to bring up all my kids to be kind, co-operative and unselfish...not really values embraced by capitalism either...but there you go.

Yes and where did it all go wrong? I saw an brilliant meme the other day. I'll have search for it but am not sure I work this platform well enough to be able to link to it, that encapsulates the third wave better than I ever could.

Thankfully we are waking up again now. We have lost the gains we could have made. In retrospect it is not surprising and the backlash until very recently has been quite subtle in its reversal. So much so that the majority of women in the West thought the West was won. Would you agree?

Off to look for the meme...

 

[campanula]

Yes and where did it all go wrong?

I honestly don't really know Judith. I mean, I know how it appeared to me because there really was quite a fundamental departure from the inclusive idealism of the 70s and the much harder edged 90s...and for me, feminism was no longer a bulwark against the brutal realities of Thatcherism...which tainted everything it touched.

 

[campanula]

Would I call myself a feminist now though? For quite a long time, I didn't think so...and I found it much harder to reconcile some really quite fundamental shifts in power. In truth, I am honestly only interested in a feminism which is properly informed by resistance to capitalism...in every malign anti-human guise.

 

[sojourner]

My interpretation of feminism is that it is the acknowledgement that women are humans.

I came to the actual word and 'movement', for want of a better word, fairly late on, in my late 20s. I'd known from being a child that because I inhabited a female body, the world was deliberately obstructing me from doing or saying or wearing the things that I just did or said or felt or wore without thinking. I was pulled up over and over and over again and it made me furious.

When I was doing an Access course, aged 28, I studied Feminisms, and a whole new world opened up to me. My interpretation of feminism is that women are oppressed because they are women, and feminisms see that and attempt to explain why, and suggest ways to break free of it.

I went wild over Radical Feminism (and Dworkin) for about, ooo, a month, because I had had repeated traumas throughout my life that were inflicted by men and were purely down to me being female. I pretty quickly saw how wrong it was, how separatism merely served to try and replicate a hierarchy, to replace one hierarchy for another, and I went right off it. I realised that we could not reach a place of true equality without treating all human beings as equal.

Went through a similar short-lived affair with the French feminists, and spent a fruitless 6 months trying to find a way to 'write the feminine', but it was very useful in terms of spotting the phallocentricity of language.

The older I get, the more inclusive it feels, or rather, it's probably that I know more feminist-minded women now, and there is a very strong sense of solidarity.

I know and have known friends who have worked as sex workers. Some have been completely fucked up by it, some are fine, and I would always lean more towards supporting my sisters in whatever work they find. Make it safer, make it legal, and don't judge. Unions, health service provision, that sort of thing. But all the while recognising that an awful lot of women do not work in this way, ARE exploited, are abused, and have no recourse.

 

[sojourner]

Oh, and I still HAVE to call myself a feminist, because women are still being oppressed. The amount of people (usually well-meaning young men tbh) who say that it's an outdated term, that they would rather call themselves egalitarians, make my eyes roll so hard they nearly fall out my head. Yes, I would fucking LOVE to 'just' call myself an egalitarian, because then that would mean I no longer have to fight for our equality, but I do, so I can't.

 

[Manter]

Oh, and I still HAVE to call myself a feminist, because women are still being oppressed. The amount of people (usually well-meaning young men tbh) who say that it's an outdated term, that they would rather call themselves egalitarians, make my eyes roll so hard they nearly fall out my head. Yes, I would fucking LOVE to 'just' call myself an egalitarian, because then that would mean I no longer have to fight for our equality, but I do, so I can't.

Yes, this.

 

[JudithB]

I came to the actual word and 'movement', for want of a better word, fairly late on, in my late 20s. I'd known from being a child that because I inhabited a female body, the world was deliberately obstructing me from doing or saying or wearing the things that I just did or said or felt or wore without thinking. I was pulled up over and over and over again and it made me furious.

When I was doing an Access course, aged 28, I studied Feminisms, and a whole new world opened up to me. My interpretation of feminism is that women are oppressed because they are women, and feminisms see that and attempt to explain why, and suggest ways to break free of it.

I went wild over Radical Feminism (and Dworkin) for about, ooo, a month, because I had had repeated traumas throughout my life that were inflicted by men and were purely down to me being female. I pretty quickly saw how wrong it was, how separatism merely served to try and replicate a hierarchy, to replace one hierarchy for another, and I went right off it. I realised that we could not reach a place of true equality without treating all human beings as equal.

Went through a similar short-lived affair with the French feminists, and spent a fruitless 6 months trying to find a way to 'write the feminine', but it was very useful in terms of spotting the phallocentricity of language.

The older I get, the more inclusive it feels, or rather, it's probably that I know more feminist-minded women now, and there is a very strong sense of solidarity.

I know and have known friends who have worked as sex workers. Some have been completely fucked up by it, some are fine, and I would always lean more towards supporting my sisters in whatever work they find. Make it safer, make it legal, and don't judge. Unions, health service provision, that sort of thing. But all the while recognising that an awful lot of women do not work in this way, ARE exploited, are abused, and have no recourse.

We appear to have taken a similar journey. So much of what I read so many years ago I have now forgotten. I have recently heard someone is thinking of running a French post-structural feminism course. If it's something you might be interested in revisiting I could dm you details when I know more.

Feminism in my opinion still has a large role to play in ensuring sex work is as safe for the woman as possible. I keep meaning to spend some proper time looking at the so-called Nordic model to see how successful it is in not only providing safety for women but also helping them to move away from the work. Call me old fashioned but I believe in 99% of cases sex workers would prefer not to do the sex bit.

 

[smokedout]

We all know what it looks like when the Government attempts to 'help' people into work.

 

[8ball]

We all know what it looks like when the Government attempts to 'help' people into work.

They get a bit of cash to tide them over til payday, a nice chocolate cake and some vouchers to cover travel expenses for a bit?

I have a feeling I may be a little off the mark here.

 

[smokedout]

Whilst the social security system is based on the principle of less eligibility there will be no meaningful help from the government for those forced out of sex work, so without sweeping economic change all the Nordic Model will do is impoverish sex workers and make sex work much more dangerous, as sex workers themselves are united in pointing out

 

[sojourner]

JudithB - not sure whereabouts in the country you are, but I'm up north, so the course is probably not going to be there is it, but thanks anyway.

 

[JudithB]

JudithB - not sure whereabouts in the country you are, but I'm up north, so the course is probably not going to be there is it, but thanks anyway.

The power of the internet means it will be brought into your home. It will be a group of between 6 to 8 people and the lecturer using one of the video call platforms.

I'll keep you in mind when it's ready to go and see if you'd like to participate

 

[sojourner]

The power of the internet means it will be brought into your home. It will be a group of between 6 to 8 people and the lecturer using one of the video call platforms.

I'll keep you in mind when it's ready to go and see if you'd like to participate

ah cheers!

 

[JudithB]

Hey ladies (and gents to some extent) when did you first become aware of feminism?

And when did you read your first feminist text or book on the subject?

I can remember hearing about women burning bras and of course Greenham Common. But I don't think I read anything you could consider a feminist text or even feminist literature (I may have and not made the connection) until I was at Uni.

I am very much of opinion that feminism needs to be taught in schools and may start speaking to some people who could help lobby for this. Was it ever taught at your school as a subject or within a subject?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I learned about the suffragettes when I was taking O level history. That was the first I'd heard about "womens' rights".

 

[8ball]

I can remember hearing about women burning bras and of course Greenham Common...

That triggered an early memory - some talk about bra burning.

And also talking to my Mum about it and her giving the example of women wanting equal pay. It flabbergasted me at the time that pay for the same job would be different (then again when I was a kid I thought it weird that different jobs got paid different amounts at all). There was a whole battery of arguments floating about (I can't remember them now, maybe if I rack my brains...), about why it was correct that a man be paid more. Early 80s, this was.

Re: Greenham Common I was in a minority in the house for being broadly against blowing up the whole world, though I think my Mum approved of them and kept quiet on the subject for familial harmony reasons.

 

[JudithB]

I learned about the suffragettes when I was taking O level history. That was the first I'd heard about "womens' rights".

Of course! I studied history at school too to A Level. Yes Emmeline Pankhurst and poor Emily Davison. I do not remember learning much more than this. Can you remember what they taught you?

My A level was post 2WW - formation of the EEA, Cold War etc.

 

[JudithB]

That triggered an early memory - some talk about bra burning.

And also talking to my Mum about it and her giving the example of women wanting equal pay. It flabbergasted me at the time that pay for the same job would be different (then again when I was a kid I thought it weird that different jobs got paid different amounts at all). There was a whole battery of arguments floating about (I can't remember them now, maybe if I rack my brains...), about why it was correct that a man be paid more. Early 80s, this was.

Re: Greenham Common I was in a minority in the house for being broadly against blowing up the whole world, though I think my Mum approved of them and kept quiet on the subject for familial harmony reasons.

We came from an anti bomb family but we never demonstrated. I think the closest we got was admiring Adrian Mole's mum for going off to join the protests.

My mother became the chief breadwinner in our home due to her sheer determination and grit. We never really discussed unequal pay. In retrospect I think that is because my father's nose had been point out of joint.