‘AA’, the British state and the IRA

[DaveCinzano]

Couldn't see anything up on this.

Short version:

Claims have been made that IRA commander in Ardoyne at the time of the Shankill bombing of 1993 was a British informer, and that he (i) planned the attack, and (ii) forewarned his handlers it was going to happen.

IRA commander at time of Shankill bombing was informer

Further claims that the IRA discovered he was a double agent after it deciphered intelligence documents stolen from Castlereagh Special Branch offices in 2002; that he was then ‘stood down’ as an IRA volunteer, but permitted to stay in the Ardoyne.

However, the Irish News understands that while he was replaced by high profile republican Eddie Copeland, no explanation was given to the rank and file members as the leadership attempted to keep the information under wraps.

Further claims that it was these deciphered SB files that led to Denis Donaldson being identified as an informer, and subsequently to his public admission of such in 2005. It is also suggested that Donaldson's high profile arrest in relation to the Castlereagh burglary was a protective measure.

‘Stormontgate' arrests orchestrated to protect Denis Donaldson

Meanwhile, Johnny Adair denies being tipped off not to go to Frizzell's that day (“I was visiting Sammy McCrory”), and raises a pertinent question:

In my opinion the IRA would have killed him or something, but if he has been able to live like a recluse, I don't know, I can't read it. It doesn't work like that.

Johnny Adair: 'Shankill bomb IRA informer sickens me'

And a man who claims to have been abducted by ‘AA’ in 2000 has asked Police Ombudsman to investigate.

Man abducted by ‘Agent AA' asks ombudsman to investigate

 

[Casually Red]

The fact that bomb exploded prematurely, killing one of the people planting it and seriously injuring the other also raises a question or 2 about state foreknowledge . Simply put, it's highly likely AA not only sent them there but provided the bomb . Which if it wasn't tampered with to not explode may well have been tampered with to explode prematurely and take the team out . With disastrous consequences for civilians .

I was sitting in a pub on the falls road that morning close to the north Howard street entrance to the shankill when all the ambulances began screeching up and down the road to the Royal which is close by . Absolutely awful . As was the aftermath .

 

[dylanredefined]

How many lives is a high level informer worth? You stop every bomb you lose the informer.
The blame rests on the people who decided to plant the bomb and they either mishandled it or manufactured it wrong.

 

[DaveCinzano]

How many lives is a high level informer worth? You stop every bomb you lose the informer.
The blame rests on the people who decided to plant the bomb and they either mishandled it or manufactured it wrong.

Except in this case the allegation is that the informer decided to plant the bomb, but also informed his handlers.

 

[likesfish]

Chance to wipe out the uvf leadership go for it.
Random sectarian slaughter neither side needed encourage ment on that score.

Oh course any dubious action by Republicans the. Fits were behind

 

[Idris2002]

In the case of the murder of Pat Finucane, there's a clear benefit to the state. Where was the benefit to the state in the Shankill road bombing?

You could kid yourself, in some cases, that your acts of murder were a desperate necessity in a desperate situation, and lie to yourself that bad as it was, it was in a good cause. You can't really say that if you murdered those people because you were a fucking incompetent.

 

[krtek a houby]

Fuck them all, the paramilitary murderers and the state murderers.

 

[Idris2002]

Related question: my understanding of NI spookdom in the 70s is that were lots of little competing groups and factions running around inside the secret wing of HM Forces and the peelers. Which is how you could get someone like Nairac going off the reservation and getting himself killed (the idea that you could put on a fake nornish accent and go into a republican pub surely couldn't have been sanctioned by his superiors?).

By 1992 was this still the case, or was there some kind of general oversight and coordination among the various groups dealing with touts, double agents, etc.?

 

[Pickman's model]

(the idea that you could put on a fake nornish accent and go into a republican pub surely couldn't have been sanctioned by his superiors?)

tbh when i see some of the lunacy management get up to in institutions like libraries i am less than certain that management in other organizations cannot be utterly lunatic.

 

[Idris2002]

tbh when i see some of the lunacy management get up to in institutions like libraries i am less than certain that management in other organizations cannot be utterly lunatic.

Well there's that. Have we forgotten Arnhem?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there's that. Have we forgotten Arnhem?

fuck arnhem, have you forgotten major farran?

 

[Idris2002]

fuck arnhem, have you forgotten major farran?

A new one on me. Who was this "Major Farran" of whom you speak?

 

[Pickman's model]

A new one on me. Who was this "Major Farran" of whom you speak?

Major Roy Farran

esp with reference to his activities in palestine

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I was sitting in a pub on the falls road that morning close to the north Howard street entrance to the shankill when all the ambulances began screeching up and down the road to the Royal which is close by .

Not a cast iron alibi. Were there others in the pub with you?

 

[nogojones]

Major Roy Farran

esp with reference to his activities in palestine

Interesting to note that Major Faran had to deal with a severe case of "boat happiness" during his escape from the Germans according to that obit

 

[coley]

Major Roy Farran

esp with reference to his activities in palestine

Interesting life.

 

[LDC]

Related question: my understanding of NI spookdom in the 70s is that were lots of little competing groups and factions running around inside the secret wing of HM Forces and the peelers. Which is how you could get someone like Nairac going off the reservation and getting himself killed (the idea that you could put on a fake nornish accent and go into a republican pub surely couldn't have been sanctioned by his superiors?).

By 1992 was this still the case, or was there some kind of general oversight and coordination among the various groups dealing with touts, double agents, etc.?

My understanding is that it was much, much more controlled, co-ordinated, and 'official' than the '70s and '80s but still with a few organizations (with slightly competing interests at times - how much is open to debate...) over-seeing and maintaining control rather than one over arching command.

 

[flypanam]

In the case of the murder of Pat Finucane, there's a clear benefit to the state. Where was the benefit to the state in the Shankill road bombing?

That's the question isn't it? The only thing I can come up with is that a bomb on the Shankill would help ramp up the Loyalist murder gangs campaign hence the GreySteel Massacre on the 30th October. I really think sections of the British Forces wanted to win the war by means other than politically.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's the question isn't it? The only thing I can come up with is that a bomb on the Shankill would help ramp up the Loyalist murder gangs campaign hence the GreySteel Massacre on the 30th October. I really think sections of the British Forces wanted to win the war by means other than politically.

yeh. which shows how out of touch they were when even as early as 1972 the british were in talks with the (p)ira.

 

[Idris2002]

That's the question isn't it? The only thing I can come up with is that a bomb on the Shankill would help ramp up the Loyalist murder gangs campaign hence the GreySteel Massacre on the 30th October. I really think sections of the British Forces wanted to win the war by means other than politically.

It was around this time that the Chinook full of spooks went down, wasn't it? Or am I misremembering?

Though really, if you did want to win the war by other than political means, you wouldn't need to organize your own atrocity to keep the pot boiling, as there was sure to be one along soon anyway.

 

[flypanam]

1994, I think.

An interesting article from McCann in the IT Eamonn McCann: State role in killings by IRA changes everything

 

[likesfish]

Not really start a low intentsity civil war its going to get bloody thats what civil wars are like.
Expecting any state not to get its hands dirty is naive.

 

[Idris2002]

Not really start a low intentsity civil war its going to get bloody thats what civil wars are like.
Expecting any state not to get its hands dirty is naive.

About as naive as seeing that same state as an impartial arbiter solely interested in upholding law and order, I suppose.

 

[Casually Red]

It's worth adding here that the press in Ireland, numerous journalists from numerous backgrounds, have had this story for around a year now and consciously didn't run with it . There's a strong suspicion it's emanating directly from the Provo leadership . And that there's a game afoot . Yet again .
Alison Morris from the Irish News, herself a close confidante of senior sinn fein members and with a track record of writing pieces they'd consider quite helpful, is the one who's finally brought this into the public domain . The issue seems to have been forced by the provision to her of documentation pertaining to the castlereagh raid , itself a dubious exercise . After the previous attempts to " leak " it fell on deaf ears .

So it looks like the Provo leadership have forced the issue and finally gotten their way . What's in it for them remains to be seen . But it's a virtual certainty they're behind it .

 

[likesfish]

Once you get armed groups running about and troops ends up getting deployed.
The spooks follow with their "good ideas" the "big picture" " cant make an omlette without breaking eggs" etc etc etc


Especailly in Northern ireland that rarely made it into the top 10 things the british cabinet gave a shit about it certainly wasn't a plum posting for spooks unless your the sort of spook who wanted to get his war on.
The British didnt have a realistic end stratergy running away wasnt an option.
Niether was slaughtering all the potential ira members which were the two traditional appoaches to colonial troubles
So spooks could get "creative" as nobody else had a plan

 

[Idris2002]

Once you get armed groups running about and troops ends up getting deployed.
The spooks follow with their "good ideas" the "big picture" " cant make an omlette without breaking eggs" etc etc etc


Especailly in Northern ireland that rarely made it into the top 10 things the british cabinet gave a shit about it certainly wasn't a plum posting for spooks unless your the sort of spook who wanted to get his war on.
The British didnt have a realistic end stratergy running away wasnt an option.
Niether was slaughtering all the potential ira members which were the two traditional appoaches to colonial troubles
So spooks could get "creative" as nobody else had a plan

They should have sent for that Callan guy.

 

[Casually Red]

It was around this time that the Chinook full of spooks went down, wasn't it? Or am I misremembering?

Though really, if you did want to win the war by other than political means, you wouldn't need to organize your own atrocity to keep the pot boiling, as there was sure to be one along soon anyway.

As it appears the state was effectively running both the loyalist and Provo campaigns simultaneously by the late 80s then pretty much every atrocity was made to order. There's little doubt now the greysteel massacre which followed the shankill massacre was the work of British agents, using weapons supplied by the state . That the shankill one itself was , at the very least, heavily compromised due to infiltration points fingers in that direction too .

Those few weeks of civilian slaughter greatly aided the peace camp centred around Adams . Anyone politically active in that period is well aware there were serious " rumblings " among the rank and file during that period . Particularly in belfast . Adams was pretty much coerced by fear of open dissent into attending Thomas Begleys funeral .

We now know that when all this was going on that secretly in the background Adams had done his deal with Hume, with the Brits , and that the deal had effectively been done behind everyone's backs . All that was left to do was bring everyone into line . That level of civilian slaughter sickened the public so much that " peace " was put front and centre onto the agenda . It stifled dissension and debate within republicanism . And greatly strengthened the hand of Adams and his inner circle .

 

[8den]

The fact that bomb exploded prematurely, killing one of the people planting it and seriously injuring the other also raises a question or 2 about state foreknowledge . Simply put, it's highly likely AA not only sent them there but provided the bomb . Which if it wasn't tampered with to not explode may well have been tampered with to explode prematurely and take the team out . With disastrous consequences for civilians .

I was sitting in a pub on the falls road that morning close to the north Howard street entrance to the shankill when all the ambulances began screeching up and down the road to the Royal which is close by . Absolutely awful . As was the aftermath .

CR is basically the Forest Gump of Northern Ireland. There's yet to be a thread about anything involving the troubles where casually red can't claim tangent involvement.

Wait till the 1916 threads start and we find out that he used to visit the green grocers were the rebels surrendered and had just been inside buying a head of lettuce half an hour before Pearse showed up.

 

[8den]

As it appears the state was effectively running both the loyalist and Provo campaigns simultaneously by the late 80s then pretty much every atrocity was made to order. There's little doubt now the greysteel massacre which followed the shankill massacre was the work of British agents, using weapons supplied by the state . That the shankill one itself was , at the very least, heavily compromised due to infiltration points fingers in that direction too .

Those few weeks of civilian slaughter greatly aided the peace camp centred around Adams . Anyone politically active in that period is well aware there were serious " rumblings " among the rank and file during that period . Particularly in belfast . Adams was pretty much coerced by fear of open dissent into attending Thomas Begleys funeral .

We now know that when all this was going on that secretly in the background Adams had done his deal with Hume, with the Brits , and that the deal had effectively been done behind everyone's backs . All that was left to do was bring everyone into line . That level of civilian slaughter sickened the public so much that " peace " was put front and centre onto the agenda . It stifled dissension and debate within republicanism . And greatly strengthened the hand of Adams and his inner circle .

If the state were running both the Provo and Unionist campaign and the entire process was a sham, what the fuck was everyone fighting for.

 

[likesfish]

Their wasnt a workable plan.
Surrender wasnt an option the republic couldnt absorb or even keep a lid on northern ireland.
The prods didnt want to deal even at the end they werent that happy.
Late 20th century British state was not milosvic's serbia or isreal so a burning derry with the corpses stacked high wasnt an option either.

Not that Piras plan was any better
First plan we shall force the brits to surrender didnt work
2nd plan keep fighting to the british quit didnt really work either

Settle for stormont jobs the ruc rebadged and er few other things

All in all a disaster all round.



Northern ireland seemed like a good idea at the time or the empire fucking about with ireland or probably a bit of both it festered into a horrible mess that nobody in westminster took any notice of till it exploded and then had no idea what to do about.

Republicanism could debate all it liked but half the population of northern ireland hated them which rather limited the appeal of any " good idea".

Soaking the soil in blood till both sides decided they had had enough is a horrible idea but better than continuing a futile fight