Yes or No -AV referendum May 2011

[articul8]

Well the one poll that actually uses verbatim the Electoral Commission's question (ie the one that will be used on polling day) finds the following [ICM for Guardian]:

The Guardian poll on the referendum – which, unlike others, used the precise wording of the referendum question proposed by the Electoral Commission – puts the yes camp ahead by six points, 44% to 38%.

 

[butchersapron]

Well the one poll that actually uses verbatim the Electoral Commission's question (ie the one that will be used on polling day) finds the following [ICM for Guardian]:

The one that ignores wider political context. Please carry on

 

[articul8]

That is the precise wording of the question as people will be asked it ie. no push-polling element.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes my dear, that's what it will be fought on. Crack on.

 

[Random]

So the Electoral Reform movement's main hope is that as little info as possible reaches the voting public.

 

[Garek]

I can't be arsed be to vote. Same shit in a different dress.

 

[Streathamite]

That is the precise wording of the question as people will be asked it ie. no push-polling element.

yeah right, so not a single member of the electorate has the intellectual wherewithal to place it in any sort of context in their own minds, at any time in the weeks running up to voting! Does the ERS have members who are somewhat sharper at this 'debate' lark than you?
e2a: has it not occurred to you that there is no way that a single member of the public will fail to associate this with a party flatlining under 10% in the polls?

 

[articul8]

D'oh - it's *because* we credit the voters with enough intelligence to recognise the difference between short-term party politial considerations and the question of the voting system which will shape the political context for a generaion that many non-Lib Dems (Labour, Greens, people of no party afilliation) are prepared to campaign for it whilst attacking the LDs for their present policy. You seem to think the voters are too stupid to see any distinction.

 

[butchersapron]

That's right. We're all London pluralists. We've no other motivations.

 

[Streathamite]

D'oh - it's *because* we credit the voters with enough intelligence to recognise the difference between short-term party politial considerations and the question of the voting system which will shape the political context for a generaion that many non-Lib Dems (Labour, Greens, people of no party afilliation) are prepared to campaign for it whilst attacking the LDs for their present policy. You seem to think the voters are too stupid to see any distinction.

no I don't, I'm one of them, after all. However, if you know the guy trying to sell you a used motor has some well dodgy track record, it does make me a helluva lot more cautious about the cars bona fides.
Hold on; you were the one who was endlessly reminding us, earlier in this thread, of all the dodgy people in the 'no' camp and all the fine chaps in the 'yes' camp. Now you're saying that's precisely what we should disregard, that it doesn't matter? Fucking hell, you hypocrite, you're all over the place!

 

[butchersapron]

He's shameless mate, and he's shameless because he is desperate.

 

[Streathamite]

He's shameless mate, and he's shameless because he is desperate.

you're too bloody right there.....it looks desperate

 

[articul8]

By all means people should look at the totality of each campaign and make their judgements - and of course Clegg and the LDs are a constituent part of the YES campaign, but far from the only one or the most influential. And that doesn't mean the question is a proxy for whether you support the LDs role in setting up the coalition or that how it effects the LDs is the most salient aspect about AV.

Ultimately, it's about whether people want to entertain the prospect of a Tory majority after the next GE. If you would be happy with that by all means deliver the Tory press the verdict they're after. Otherwise, punish the LDs at the locals, but deliver Cameron a bloody nose at the same time.

 

[butchersapron]

When you say wank like totality you mean people hate the lib-dems. And you want to pretend that they don't.

Don't ever go into politics - you're shit at it.

 

[butchersapron]

By all means people should look at the totality of each campaign and make their judgements - and of course Clegg and the LDs are a constituent part of the YES campaign, but far from the only one or the most influential. And that doesn't mean the question is a proxy for whether you support the LDs role in setting up the coalition or that how it effects the LDs is the most salient aspect about AV.

Ultimately, it's about whether people want to entertain the prospect of a Tory majority after the next GE. If you would be happy with that by all means deliver the Tory press the verdict they're after. Otherwise, punish the LDs at the locals, but deliver Cameron a bloody nose at the same time.

Ultimately, it's about whether people want to entertain the prospect of a Tory majority after the next GE

No it's not. Saying it over makes you look like a cock.

 

[articul8]

not just me saying it - backed up by psephology:
http://labouryes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/The-Last-Chance-Saloon-Labour-and-AV.pdf

 

[butchersapron]

A link to the labour yes campaign. Yes i would suspect a group that you're part of and paid to be part of agrees with you.

 

[butchersapron]

Hey look it's will straw, son of and paid latimer project leader (let's join up with the lib-dems) running the site - what a shock!

In it up to your shit coloured eyeballs.

 

[Santino]

D'oh - it's *because* we credit the voters with enough intelligence to recognise the difference between short-term party politial considerations and the question of the voting system which will shape the political context for a generaion that many non-Lib Dems (Labour, Greens, people of no party afilliation) are prepared to campaign for it whilst attacking the LDs for their present policy. You seem to think the voters are too stupid to see any distinction.

How will AV shape the political context? Will it enable a genuine alternative to emerge (please show your working)? Will it push the Tories out of goverment forever (please show your working)? Will it deliver more seats for smaller parties (please show your working)?

 

[Streathamite]

Ultimately, it's about whether people want to entertain the prospect of a Tory majority after the next GE. If you would be happy with that by all means deliver the Tory press the verdict they're after. Otherwise, punish the LDs at the locals, but deliver Cameron a bloody nose at the same time.

jesus you're really fucking desperate now! It's not about that at all, not least going by your own posts earlier in the thread. A 'no' vote does not make a tory majority that much more likely after the next election, especially not if they don't get their gerrymandering through as well. where Labour and the tories are in the polls is much more relevant
And you're doing it again - in your very next post after criticising me for saying people will look at the context of this being a lib dem pet project, you're trying to drum up support by painting the 'no' campaign as being linked with the tory press! fucking hell!
You really are somersaulting left right and centre. are you sure you're not a libdem?

 

[butchersapron]

This is what pluralism means - one, two, many positions.

 

[articul8]

How will AV shape the political context? Will it push the Tories out of goverment forever (please show your working)?

No, but it will make it much harder them to form a majority without a programme that is capable of attracting the support of many more people outside the core Tory vote than they have to achieve under FPTP where they can routinely win seats on 30-40% of the vote.

Will it deliver more seats for smaller parties (please show your working)?

In the short term, no it won't. But it will release people who want to vote for smaller parties to do so without the fear they will be losing their chance to influence the outcome by doing so.

Will it help an alternative to emerge? Partly for the reason above I would say that it, will but that is a longer term project and there is no causal relation. There's no shortcut to produce such an alternative by tinkering with the electoral system.

 

[articul8]

Hey look it's will straw, son of and paid latimer project leader (let's join up with the lib-dems) running the site - what a shock!
.

You seem to be more interested in the Latimer project than anyone else I know. Why does it fascinate you so?

 

[butchersapron]

Political instinct.

 

[articul8]

All pluralists think alike and are part of some single agenda? How very paranoid

 

[Santino]

No, but it will make it much harder them to form a majority without a programme that is capable of attracting the support of many more people outside the core Tory vote than they have to achieve under FPTP where they can routinely win seats on 30-40% of the vote.

There's a gap in your argument. Who's going to be winning in these seats to stop the Tories getting in?

 

[butchersapron]

All pluralists think alike and are part of some single agenda? How very paranoid

Thus revealing that you're operating as their left. Yeah. We got you.

 

[articul8]

Pluralist left? Yes sounds like a fair cop. But as distinct from liberal pluralist.

 

[articul8]

There's a gap in your argument. Who's going to be winning in these seats to stop the Tories getting in?

LDs but with LDs having to succesfully tack left to appeal for Lab/Green 2nd preferences. Would it be better for Tories to win?

 

[butchersapron]

That's right, i really want a lid-dem party that has to pretend to be left-wing instead of the tories. They'll save us.

Given the game away there.