Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Yes or No -AV referendum May 2011

Because i made a point about what would be remembered as the great betrayal of 2010-11 in direct reply to moon's post here - the lib-dems behaviour or the AV vote being lost because of that behavior and you then jumped in with your now disappeared query about it's shocking that electoral reformers united in support of electoral reform?

It's fucking bad form for you to now post the above after you disappeared the post i was replying to and replaced it with something entirely different.

You're not covering yourself in glory on this thread, it has to be said. And you're a pro. Why did you remove that post - got a little too close to the truth did i?
 
butchersapron said:
It's fucking bad form
Click to expand...

No, i posted that after misreading your post to Moon as implying that that "betrayal" was specific to electoral reform, when presumably the LD betrayal you refer to is much broader than that. So I'm not defending the LDs in general - although I don't consider their backing of AV as unprincipled - unlike their position on VAT/ fees etc. etc..
 
articul8 said:
:D yes, right. So when I organise in my local anti-cuts campaign, I am being an agent of the ruling class?! Is John McDonnell also part of this ruling class conspiracy when he calls for a YES vote? Don' be daft.
Click to expand...
"The support and guidance provided by ERS proved invaluable and enabled our ballot to proceed smoothly and in a timely manner."
- Imperial Tobacco Group plc

"Efficient and competent service."
- Rio Tinto

"A very professional and helpful service."
- News International (News Corporation)
 
butchersapron said:
I note also your now almost complete latimerisation.
Click to expand...

I'm not in favour of reaching out across the divide if it means being less critical of the coalition's policies. But I don't think that every member of the Lib Dems is automatically some piece of subhuman scum, only those that are applauding the cuts eg.

I know that anything short of advocating a final solution for Lib Dem voters is going to seem like a soft left position on these boards just now. But why drive otherwise hesitant or doubting LD identifyers into the arms of Clegg et al?
 
Why on earth do you think they'd be driven by me? They're not pawns. And from where? From your party.

What are your connections with the latimer project? Let's get the cards on the table early this time eh?
 
Butchersapron, you are insignificant, you think you're a big shot. Stop spoiling it for the AV campaign with your lack of influence!!!!
 
butchersapron said:
What are your connections with the latimer project? Let's get the cards on the table early this time eh?
Click to expand...

Sorry to disappoint but there exists no connection between me and the Latimer Project, bar the fact that I have spoken ocassionally to one or two of the people involved. But that doesn't amount to me supporting it or having any formal involvment with it whatsoever.

If you really want to punish Clegg the best way would be to win over his voters and even members to a different kind of politics. But simply denouncing them all as the devil's spawn might be gratifying but it isn't very clever. That way they get defensive and start feeling they have to defend the indefensible,.
 
Lucky the only people doing that are in your pluralist imagination. It's been repeated over and over that the lib-dems mugged people, very few are blaming the victims.

Just what sort of bubble are you floating on?
 
yes there's the "once bitten twice shy" LD voters. But what do they do under a FPTP system which won't have the paradoxical effect of helping the Tories?
 
Random said:
"The support and guidance provided by ERS proved invaluable and enabled our ballot to proceed smoothly and in a timely manner."
- Imperial Tobacco Group plc

"Efficient and competent service."
- Rio Tinto


"A very professional and helpful service."
- News International (News Corporation)
Click to expand...

Technically the organisation you're referring to is not my employer, although it does generate the revenue which pays my wages. But it doesn't effect the causes for which we campaign! Murdoch hates electoral reform!!!
 
That's my point, not yours/ You argue that it offers a better result than pure FPTP. It doesn't but the main argument is it will fuck the coalition up more than a yes vote. That's politics. Please don't tell me it isn't.

You seem to be floundering and confused.
 
articul8 said:
Technically the organisation you're referring to is not my employer, although it does generate the revenue which pays my wages. But it doesn't effect the causes for which we campaign! Murdoch hates electoral reform!!!
Click to expand...

Technically. Do you really not how get how fucking technically neck deep in shit you are? It's started to come out of your mouth.
 
articul8 said:
The Tories are the main enemy and the currently pro Tory leadership of the LDs. But don't make the mistake of assuming that anyone who has voted or might do so in future has been unveiled as a secret tory.
Click to expand...
who on earth is doing that? I for one have alot of sympathy for all those people who voted LD to punish labour and have since realised they got absolutely stitched up.
 
butchersapron said:
Technically. Do you really not how get how fucking technically neck deep in shit you are? It's started to come out of your mouth.
Click to expand...

bollocks - I'm paid to lobby for a cause which is anti-Tory and which helps to accelerate the realignment of the British left. Which all sounds good to me.
 
a) it will - it will leave them gridlocked - tories feared of going too far for breaking the coalition, lib-dem scared of losing seats and their career
b) no it doesn't - it's much easier in fact, as FPTP favours labour. The party that you're in, but don't actually support.
 
articul8 said:
bollocks - I'm paid to lobby for a cause which is anti-Tory and which helps to accelerate the realignment of the British left. Which all sounds good to me.
Click to expand...

You can sell it to yourself anyway you like. You already have. The limits of this vision are a realignment between labour and the lib-dems removed from any link with the unions. Yes, you're paid allright.
 
articul8 said:
bollocks - I'm paid to lobby for a cause which is anti-Tory and which helps to accelerate the realignment of the British left. Which all sounds good to me.
Click to expand...

Why are your lib dem employers and tory paymasters helping to align the british left?
 
Random said:
Why are your lib dem employers and tory paymasters helping to align the british left?
Click to expand...
Yes there is a wing of the ruling class who want a centrist lib/lab arrangement. But even if that happened there would be a scope for a viable labour left/Green left/far left arrangement up like Die Linke. This seems like a positive step forward!
 
My problem with MPs is they are *too* bound by public promises, rhetorical capture, careerism and tribal loyalty to consider legislation on its merits.

It's supposed to be representative government. MPs are under no obligation to do any specific thing they promise, and are not just permitted but implicitly encouraged in our system's logic to make up their minds afresh on the issues before them as they learn more and have to compromise with reality.

It's frankly bizarre to insist LibDems must keep their promises and then to suppose that imposing STV rather than settling for AV is one of their missions. STV has it's mertis, but it also ensures no-one gets to keep their promises, the very thing you are supposing is undesirable.
 
moon23 said:
My problem with MPs is they are *too* bound by public promises, rhetorical capture, careerism and tribal loyalty to consider legislation on its merits.

It's supposed to be representative government. MPs are under no obligation to do any specific thing they promise, and are not just permitted but implicitly encouraged in our system's logic to make up their minds afresh on the issues before them as they learn more and have to compromise with reality.

It's frankly bizarre to insist LibDems must keep their promises and then to suppose that imposing STV rather than settling for AV is one of their missions. STV has it's mertis, but it also ensures no-one gets to keep their promises, the very thing you are supposing is undesirable.
Click to expand...

Your problem with MPs is that they are too accountable! So much for the democratic part of Lib Dem.

Louis MacNeice
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PR1Berske
Sheffield school incident 1st May 2024
2
Replies
33
Views
1K
Serge Forward
Serge Forward
TopCat
  • Poll
WPGB or LP
2 3 4
Replies
111
Views
4K
redsquirrel
R
Magnus McGinty
Apparently I no longer have an NHS dentist
Replies
24
Views
846
newme
newme
Kid_Eternity
No thanks app - boycotting Israel with a tap of a button
Replies
4
Views
366
existentialist
existentialist
editor
Bournemouth beach deaths, May 2023
2
Replies
47
Views
3K
andysays
andysays
Back
Top Bottom