Working class attitudes to servicemen of the Second World War

[Dark Knight]

I'm new here and couldn't find an 'Introductions' section, so apologies in advance if this is out-of-line.

I've always been interested in politics, but my politics have been all over the place over the years, and I confess in some respects I lean towards the Right, so I may steer clear of the general discussion sections. Even so, this Forum is interesting. I've lurked for a long time and enjoy reading the threads because it's very interesting and informative.

I've been researching my family history and came across an interesting/puzzling issue and this may be of some general interest.

My paternal grandfather was a coal miner and became a Navy gunner in the War. My mother tells me that when he returned home (to Yorkshire, in 1945), he was shunned by the community and he spent the rest of his life homeless and sleeping out of bus shelters, etc. My mother got the story from my father, who unfortunately passed away some years ago. My father recounted the story to her before they married (back in the late 70s).

Apparently, the community shunned my grandfather because he had fought in the War and, as a gunner, had killed people, etc.

Now, to me, this story doesn't stack up and my first thought about it was that it can't be true (or it is a misinterpretation of the truth) because, at least in my understanding, there was a lot of organised trade union support for the War effort and employers were supportive too. Lots of miners, like my grandfather, would have been conscripted or volunteered, and would have returned home after the War expecting to work again in the mines.

On the other hand, a little bit of reading has revealed to me that there was quite a lot of grassroots communist and labour resistance to the War, and I also have the impression that shunning and ostracisation were common social reactions in mining communities, which could be quite introverted and parochial. I wonder if my grandfather was a victim of such?

I do appreciate there may be some people here who would side with the anti-war view, and I can understand that myself. But that's not my point or purpose here. What I'm trying to do is understand the matter objectively/neutrally and try to gain a better knowledge/understanding of what happened to my grandfather and why, and if the family story is true (I'm not saying it is), I'd also like to look at whether this is recognised on any scholarly level as a general phenomenon.

A casual (so far) search online does not reveal much in the way of academic and non-academic literature on the subject of working class attitudes to returning servicemen of the War in the aftermath of demobilisation, i.e. from 1945 onward.

Does anybody here have any knowledge of the topic? Can anybody provide me with a steer towards credible books and research sources? I'm finding it fairly easy to locate books and archive material on working class politics during the War, but where I'm struggling is regarding social attitudes to veterans and their treatment at the hands of mining communities. I'm particularly interested in ascertaining if there is any evidence for the 'shunning' phenomenon I've just described, or whether it should be considered apocryphal or just something my father made up (perhaps to cover for something else).

The topic fascinates me, so I want to pursue it. I know I'm being a bit thick, so apologies, but essentially I have no relevant academic background or credentials and I don't quite know where to start.

 

[Flavour]

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[mauvais]

You're looking at it from a purely political perspective - actions in, political conditions applied, result out.

That may or may not be important but you don't seem to have any idea what the people bit of it was like. Maybe he came back badly affected by his experiences, and was difficult to be around. Maybe regardless of that the other people around him didn't want a reminder of their own wartime experiences.

 

[Serge Forward]

I'd recommend Pete Grafton's book: YOU,YOU & YOU! Restored NOW ONLINE

 

[Dark Knight]

Have you seen this book?

The National Archives Online Shop

The National Archives Shop stocks a beautiful and unusual range of gifts and books inspired by the story of Britain and the treasures in our collection.

bookshop.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Thank you, I'm ever so grateful.

You're looking at it from a purely political perspective - actions in, political conditions applied, result out.

That may or may not be important but you don't seem to have any idea what the people bit of it was like. Maybe he came back badly affected by his experiences, and was difficult to be around. Maybe regardless of that the other people around him didn't want a reminder of their own wartime experiences.

Yes, this could be it. Will have to look into it. Thanks. Not sure how to start really, but I'm guessing local historians/researchers who are published may be approachable in some cases and could provide a starting point.

 

[Dark Knight]

I'd recommend Pete Grafton's book: YOU,YOU & YOU! Restored NOW ONLINE

Brilliant, thank you.

 

[mauvais]

Unfortunately I doubt you will ever really get proper answers to the specifics of your family, as anyone likely to have useful first hand memories - as adults - is likely dead, and it's unlikely that people's individual crises are well documented. You can certainly learn a lot about average post-war experiences though.

I would suggest a few more things. Firstly, what we now call PTSD is a modern 'discovery' - starting with the Vietnam War - and so try and imagine how society would handle sufferers without that developed understanding or framing, not that it's perfect now. Second, you probably don't end up homeless through community politics and ostracisation alone, so it suggests to me other factors in play, and also that this was likely to have consequences of its own.

And third, if this activity is or becomes actually indirectly about you in some way - your politics, your mental health, whatever it is or turns into - then understand that it has no bearing on who you are. That sounds a weird thing to say unprompted but people sometimes get caught up in family history and try to link it to their own lives in the present. Well, certain very conditional biological specifics aside, it doesn't hold any meaning. You haven't been exposed to the same things.

 

[Sue]

That may or may not be important but you don't seem to have any idea what the people bit of it was like. Maybe he came back badly affected by his experiences, and was difficult to be around. Maybe regardless of that the other people around him didn't want a reminder of their own wartime experiences.

Yes, a relation of mine came back from WWI and would have episodes where he'd run through the streets screaming. He'd been in the trenches for a long time and assume this was PTSD or something similar. Apparently his neighbours would go out looking for him and help take him home again. I suspect these types of episodes weren't massively uncommon, given the number of people who'd been through this stuff. It seems in his community at least, people were pretty understanding.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I know my grandad resented his war service enough to refuse to collect his medals. I've heard anecdotes over how horrified he was over the state of Germany when he went over to look after POWs towards the end (he was mostly home services, deep labour working class gas rigger post war)

I wouldn't have thought there'd be widespread ostracism for those called up just because of the strength and widespread conscription?

 

[Dark Knight]

And third, if this activity is or becomes actually indirectly about you in some way - your politics, your mental health, whatever it is or turns into - then understand that it has no bearing on who you are. That sounds a weird thing to say unprompted but people sometimes get caught up in family history and try to link it to their own lives in the present. Well, certain very conditional biological specifics aside, it doesn't hold any meaning. You haven't been exposed to the same things.

Thanks. Unfortunately, for reasons I probably shouldn't go into too much, it IS about me, whether I like it or not, and that is part of my motivation. I don't like it, but it is what it is. Basically, my father was a paranoid schizophrenic and my suspicion is that the grandfather's wartime and post-War experiences and influences were the genesis of it. I personally believe that schizophrenia is environmental (obviously with some genetic determination that's acted on, etc.). I was not told of any of this back story growing up and I then developed my own 'problems' without any reference point.

I'm not saying that my thesis is right, it may just be converging bias, and I'm no doctor/psychiatrist or psychologist, but I want to look at it and see what I can find.

It is interesting to speculate if PTSD/severe trauma might be inter-generational and if this has had wider repercussions to some extent in society that are invisible because it has not been recognised/conceptualised, but we're going into an entire controversy in its own right there. I have no credentials in the matter, other than personal observations and experience.

Thanks.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Was under the impression that coal miners were not conscripted at all, the opposite in fact, they were required via the Essential Work Order to remain in the mines as the war effort relied on domestic coal, indeed the Bevin Boys were conscripted to work in the mines. So if the grandad here quit the mines to fight and was subsequently shunned, that may be the reason.

 

[Dark Knight]

I wouldn't have thought there'd be widespread ostracism for those called up just because of the strength and widespread conscription?

Yes, it could well be a load of rubbish, but my mother swears blind that is what my father told her, and she was quite detailed in her recount, has no reason to lie, and my father was lucid at the time.

I can also see that there are reasons why it might have happened that way in a particular place and time, maybe also partly to do with him personally. I was involved in Labour/Left/socialist politics when young in the same area (I was oblivious to all this difficult family history) and while I was of an entirely different generation, this personal experience means I have a sense of the mentalities involved. We're talking about a very 'red' part of the country and there was, I think (I only think this, I don't pretend to know) a very inward/parochial aspect to mining communities/pit villages that means it needs to be understood as a particular culture/experience in its own right, with its own mentality, dialect, politics, and 'us and then' attitude viz. the rest of society.

 

[Dark Knight]

Was under the impression that coal miners were not conscripted at all, the opposite in fact, they were required via the Essential Work Order in the mines to work longer as the war effort relied on domestic coal, indeed the Bevin Boys were conscripted to work in the mines. So if the grandad here quit the mines to fight and was subsequently shunned, that may be the reason.

Yes, I should have made this clear, sorry. I was being general, but in my grandfather's case, my understanding is that he did volunteer for the Navy. I'm not quite sure why. He was very young in 1939/40 as well - about 18.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yes, I should have made this clear, sorry. I was being general, but in my grandfather's case, my understanding is that he did volunteer for the Navy. I'm not quite sure why. He was very young in 1939/40 as well - about 18.

My paternal grandad was working class and served in the Royal Navy during WW2 and there was no talk of shunning. He was sunk a couple of times, Housnlow's Uncle Albert.

 

[mauvais]

If we surmise even roughly correctly about your grandfather then it's likely that your father also had a very difficult time, potentially PTSD of his own. It will absolutely be intergenerational in that sense. And maybe it has consequences on you. But that's slightly different to a sort of 'curse' idea that some people hold in which this is all the same grade of something inherent to your very being - instead it's environmental cause and effect, but in a chain.

Also consider that the social & familial bit of society as we know it now is really highly transparent, for a variety of reasons, whereas even a few decades ago it was much more possible and much more encouraged to keep secrets especially about family, mental health etc - families told each other all sorts of lies. Perhaps lies is the wrong word too, more like invented narratives that even came to be accepted as real. So getting at any truth is very difficult and you have to make guesses instead.

 

[Dark Knight]

If we surmise even roughly correctly about your grandfather then it's likely that your father also had a very difficult time, potentially PTSD of his own. It will absolutely be intergenerational in that sense. And maybe it has consequences on you. But that's slightly different to a sort of 'curse' idea that some people hold in which this is all the same grade of something inherent to your very being - instead it's environmental cause and effect, but in a chain.

Also consider that the social & familial bit of society as we know it now is really highly transparent, for a variety of reasons, whereas even a few decades ago it was much more possible and much more encouraged to keep secrets especially about family, mental health etc - families told each other all sorts of lies. Perhaps lies is the wrong word too, more like invented narratives that even came to be accepted as real. So getting at any truth is very difficult and you have to make guesses instead.

The idea of a 'curse' is interesting. Am I carrying some sort of curse that gets passed down due to something my grandfather did that he developed guilt about? Is there a biological/scientific basis for the 'curse' idea? Possibly there is. I've always thought that notions such as karma and reincarnation, while self-evidently a bit silly when taken literally, do have a figurative truth to them and reflect observations about the way the world really works and how things get equitably 'reckoned' and 'sorted'.

What I was told by my father once (he told me this when he was in a psychiatric hospital) is that my grandfather did feel guilt/shame about things he had done in the War. He'd shot down German fighters and - forgive the macabre development of the topic - he'd seen the pilots before they died and this affected him. He was killing fellow human beings. Is there something I need to do in my life to redeem him?

I'm taking the thread in a weird direction now - sorry. By pure coincidence, I speak German and I've lived there, and I've nothing against Germans particularly. Well, actually, they are bloody annoying. But I've nothing against them in terms of historical events, personal or otherwise. That would be petty.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. You've been very helpful. Thanks.

 

[mauvais]

I mention the whole thing because a lot of people buy directly into these kind of ideas, because they make a good, simple story and the alternative (and reality) is something really complex, multifaceted and difficult to address. Now there are genetic factors to things like schizophrenia but they usually manifest as susceptibility rather than a definitive conclusion, and unless you have a very clear idea of that link, it's probably not something to be assumed.

Your idea of karma is interesting. In perhaps a similar way I kind of believe in karma as a loose concept but as manifested through normal constructs rather than unseen divine magic. For example people who are selfish and nasty may not get direct comeuppance but often live unhappy, unfulfilled lives. People who inherit privilege often miss out on a lot of fundamental human things about life. There are logical reasons for all this. In your case it's a story that isn't even fully quantified and I don't think there is anything to redemption - unless it brings you happiness, which doesn't have to be rational.

I don't think you'll find tangible resolution in this whole adventure, and maybe you shouldn't look for it. However maybe you can use elements of the exploration to find out something about yourself and who you are on your own terms.

 

[WouldBe]

Have you tried searching the web for his name? It may bring up newspaper articles that might shed some light on how he became homeless.

 

[Dark Knight]

Have you tried searching the web for his name? It may bring up newspaper articles that might shed some light on how he became homeless.

Good idea. Alas, it's a common name, but a search through newspaper archives may reveal something. It's crossed my mind already that there may be something I'd rather not find and the 'shunning' tale is a cover-up of something nasty.

 

[8ball]

I'd recommend Pete Grafton's book: YOU,YOU & YOU! Restored NOW ONLINE

Having checked the link, I can agree I'm well out of step with World War 11.

 

[WouldBe]

Good idea. Alas, it's a common name, but a search through newspaper archives may reveal something. It's crossed my mind already that there may be something I'd rather not find and the 'shunning' tale is a cover-up of something nasty.

His name may be common but you should be able to narrow it down by the years after the war and locality. Possibly also check census records which would tell you if he did live somewhere and wasn't actually homeless.

 

[The39thStep]

There's a n interesting read in the CPs account of being in the services in WW2. Days of the Good Soldiers: Communists in the Armed Forces, World War II: Amazon.co.uk: Kisch, Richard: 9780904526684: Books

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Having checked the link, I can agree I'm well out of step with World War 11.

I must have missed World Wars 3 through 11. When did they happen?

 

[8ball]

I must have missed World Wars 3 through 11. When did they happen?

Best stay as you are.

 

[freakydave]

There is an interview with Patrick Stewart and his dad was one of those guys who everyone hated because he was just an 'evil' person, but he found out that the poor guy had gone off to war as a kid and had seen utter carnage and it had just broken his mind.
Even now veterans are pretty scary people for us civvies, back in those days they had such a different view of personality
It's such a fascinating thing. Everyone suffered so much and the whole idea of life being about yourself is a modern invention. My mum's dad was a fireman in the war because he refused to kill, but there is this story passed down to me about a basement where a load of families had put their kids that they opened up the next day and it was just full of dead children of all ages. Horrible story for us, but it was and is so normal for so many people that that will happen for an ultimately pointless war

Happy Birthday sweetheart

edit: sorry. those are very middle class attitudes towards war

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I must have missed World Wars 3 through 11. When did they happen?

North Korea won them all, the BBC doesn’t report on it

 

[Raheem]

Good idea. Alas, it's a common name, but a search through newspaper archives may reveal something. It's crossed my mind already that there may be something I'd rather not find and the 'shunning' tale is a cover-up of something nasty.

You could also get his service record.

Get a copy of military records of service

Get military records of service for the Royal Navy (including Royal Marines), British Army and Royal Air Force - who can apply, how long it takes, cost, how to apply.

www.gov.uk

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Dunno.

For perspective, I'm an amateur historian, don't have any living relatives who were in the armed services during / after 1939-45 (dad did national service in the early 50's but I can't ask him now, one grandfather was in the RAF in WW2, the other grandfather - who died before i was born - in the army / RFC / RAF in WW1)

I've not previously encountered the idea of men being 'shunned' to that extent for having been in the services - most men didn't get a lot of choice, although as others have said, coal mining was a 'reserved occupation' so miners were exempt from conscription. I'm not sure if (in a job like that) you weren't supposed to join the services, or had to get employer's permission, or what.

My background is south london, so not much knowledge of mining communities, but on the buses, drivers were also a reserved occupation, but some did volunteer to join up, and not aware of any issues when they came back (although a fair proportion of bus-men in that era were ex services)

i've heard some stories about a bit of muttering about people in reserved occupations being seen as going off in search of glory while others were keeping things going at home (have heard that in respect of policemen, who were again not conscripted but weren't barred from volunteering) but not heard anything about people being shunned or forced out of jobs.

On the contrary, a lot of working class men of that generation took a certain pride in their war service and there could be a bit of status attached to what a man "had been" during the war (not what he "had done") and (in general) not that positive an attitude towards conscientious objectors or men whose reasons for not having joined up were seen as a bit thin.

Having said that, yes of course there were pacifists / anti war sentiment - opinion on the left did vary between anti-war and anti-Nazi sentiments taking priority.

And the post-1945 employment market was generally pretty healthy, so would have thought that the average man at the time who found they were not welcome at their old job (or who didn't want to go back to their old job) would not have a lot of trouble finding something else, even if it meant moving.

I am inclined to think there was something more personal here - either something that happened within the community that grandfather did to piss people off either before joining up, the way he did it, or something that happened when he got back (although that wouldn't explain becoming homeless rather than moving away) so the idea of PTSD (shell-shock as it was more often known at the time) does sound plausible.

Some service records of WW2 era are available - this may be a good place to start, although they are wary about giving out records for people who might just still be alive, so WW2 era records aren't yet as widely available as WW1 era.

 

[freakydave]

North Korea won them all, the BBC doesn’t report on it

Don't tell them Pike Jo Sung

 

[SheilaNaGig]

The idea of a 'curse' is interesting. Am I carrying some sort of curse that gets passed down due to something my grandfather did that he developed guilt about? Is there a biological/scientific basis for the 'curse' idea? Possibly there is. I've always thought that notions such as karma and reincarnation, while self-evidently a bit silly when taken literally, do have a figurative truth to them and reflect observations about the way the world really works and how things get equitably 'reckoned' and 'sorted'.

What I was told by my father once (he told me this when he was in a psychiatric hospital) is that my grandfather did feel guilt/shame about things he had done in the War. He'd shot down German fighters and - forgive the macabre development of the topic - he'd seen the pilots before they died and this affected him. He was killing fellow human beings. Is there something I need to do in my life to redeem him?

I'm taking the thread in a weird direction now - sorry. By pure coincidence, I speak German and I've lived there, and I've nothing against Germans particularly. Well, actually, they are bloody annoying. But I've nothing against them in terms of historical events, personal or otherwise. That would be petty.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. You've been very helpful. Thanks.

Looking into epigenetics might be interesting for you too. It’s very likely that emotional trauma can be passed down epigenetically.

No idea what level of study you prefer, so I’ll not post links. It’s all over the internet anyway. Search using words including epignetics trauma schizophrenia ptsd. Epigenetics + Dutch hunger winter, Irish famine, holocaust, 9/11 also.


Lots of debunking stuff to read up too btw.


ETA
Also, when you’ve made (?) 50 posts and been here for (?) 2 weeks you get access to the community forums. If you want to, you can post something of the more personal stuff in there.