Windrush Square, Brixton - news and discussion

[teuchter]

2 secs googling;
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/3500.aspx

"TfL intends to invest £6m into the project for highway and traffic works, and public space improvements, subject to funding being available"

Therefore 500k didnt even cover the wanky architects/consultants fees

4 years out of date and that figure appears to include the road improvement works as well as the square

 

[teuchter]

A more recent estimate put the figure at £9.5m.

http://www.designforlondon.gov.uk/what-we-do/all/brixton/

I don't think there's a date for that article unless I'm missing something so we don't know how up to date it is.

It's not entirely clear whether the figure is just for Phase 3, or all phases, and how much is attributable to the square itself.

 

[teuchter]

If you're going to start a poll asking if something is good value or not, at least make the effort to research the amount of money that was actually spent otherwise it's a totally pointless effort.

So to say the project was too expensive without making any effort to research the actual cost is fine ... and yet to start a thread asking whether criticism of costs without knowing what they were is valid, is somehow in contrast totally pointless?

 

[teuchter]

Really? Looks like tedious point scoring and staring over the rims of your glasses whilst interrupted from a very important and worthwhile book to wither us all with your lofty opinion, most of which you choose to withhold because it amuses you to see the plebs crash and splutter around in their ignorance.

Looks like, anyway.

Much as spluttering plebs might amuse me, I'm not witholding my opinion. My opinion is that I can not form an opinion at present due to lack of details.

It's quite true that this whole business is interrupting my more important other work, however.

 

[teuchter]

Seeing as teucher is unable to research this properly, I did it for him - and it look looks like we were underestimating the figures by a considerable amount:

Doesn't meet my standards for proper research I'm afraid - for reasons detailed on the other thread.

 

[teuchter]

Another fan of the square here (I love the idea of those individual seats as opposed to benches) but the costs are staggering.

I have to deal on occassion with Lambeth council and the way that anything they do gets handled leads me to believe that the costs could be at least halved on anything and everything they are involved with and with people still eating well on the back of it.

Its a tiny example I know but I met with a Roofer this week who showed me the bill presented to Lambeth by their main contractor for £1000 and the amount he recieves, £500.

All they do is fax the work sheet over to him and pocket £500 for the pleasure. And I am sure that this can be multiplied to take into account projects like this.

Well - if this is true, it indicates the problem is with the way in which work is procured, rather than the work that is chosen to be done. In other words, these problems would still apply even if the money had been spent on the rec centre or whatever.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

There's no poll option for 'ask me in 15 years time'
I cannot pass judgement until then. If it wears well and is used well for a reasonable length of time, well, probably yes.

 

[teuchter]

There's no poll option for 'ask me in 15 years time'
I cannot pass judgement until then. If it wears well and is used well for a reasonable length of time, well, probably yes.

This is a very good point actually.

The "return" on something like this, assuming it's done well, will be spread over quite a long period of time, compared to some other types of project. This (along with things like maintenance cost) has to be taken into account when making a judgement.

 

[editor]

I don't think there's a date for that article unless I'm missing something so we don't know how up to date it is.

The page source says 'copyright 2009.'

 

[Crispy]

Another fan of the square here (I love the idea of those individual seats as opposed to benches) but the costs are staggering.

I have to deal on occassion with Lambeth council and the way that anything they do gets handled leads me to believe that the costs could be at least halved on anything and everything they are involved with and with people still eating well on the back of it.

I was under the impression that this was a TFL funded and planned project, not Lambeth?

 

[editor]

Here's the official press release for the opening with the total cost: £9.7 million

Mayor unveils new bigger, brighter, greener Windrush Square in Brixton
26 FEBRUARY 2010

Following a nine month makeover and a GLA Group investment of £9.7m, a new-look Windrush Square was officially opened by the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, in Brixton today (Friday, 26th February). The Mayor was joined by Tessa Jowell, Minister for London, Lambeth Council leader Steve Reed, and Windrush veterans who travelled to the UK on Empire Windrush in 1948.

Work on the square, which is a flagship project of the Mayor of London’s Great Outdoors Programme, has been carried out by Transport for London in partnership with Lambeth Council, Design for London, and the London Development Agency. The area has now been transformed into a community focused space in the heart of Brixton adding a much-needed venue for local events.

http://www.london.gov.uk/media/pres...gger-brighter-greener-windrush-square-brixton

I trust this meets teucher's "standards for proper research" (even if he seems unable to do any himself).

 

[editor]

It seems that the previous figure of £9.5m was inaccurate.

In fact, it cost another £200,000, taking the total to a fairly staggering £9.7m (see other thread for source).

Is there any point to this thread, btw?

 

[teuchter]

It's not clear from the press release whether that is just for the square or whether it includes the road realignments and all the other stuff. Also the £9.7m figure seems to be the GLA investment - which is not necessarily the total cost.

Why do you use the adjective "staggering"?

 

[Bob]

It seems that the previous figure of £9.5m was inaccurate.

In fact, it cost another £200,000, taking the total to a fairly staggering £9.7m (see other thread for source).

Is there any point to this thread, btw?

I think there's a point.

Which is that Lambeth keep on doing stuff like Windrush square - which on balance is nice - but astoundingly expensive.

So I think a lot of people would agree that if a benevolent millionaire (ok probably billionaire to have a spare £9m) offered to give us Windrush Square we'd be happy, but we don't want to pay for it ourselves.

The new pavements and stuff outside Herne Hill station are a bit like this - quite nice but probably not worth the cash.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are there examples of similar developments that have cost lots less?

 

[London_Calling]

How about if it cost £10 million and lasted 20 years - is that any better?

 

[teuchter]

I think there's a point.

Which is that Lambeth keep on doing stuff like Windrush square - which on balance is nice - but astoundingly expensive.

So I think a lot of people would agree that if a benevolent millionaire (ok probably billionaire to have a spare £9m) offered to give us Windrush Square we'd be happy, but we don't want to pay for it ourselves.

The new pavements and stuff outside Herne Hill station are a bit like this - quite nice but probably not worth the cash.

What sort of figure would you have in mind, if you were asked what would be a reasonable sum for the public purse to pay for Windrush Square?

(Also as a matter of pedantry, Lambeth did not pay for it.)

 

[Gixxer1000]

Why do you use the adjective "staggering"?

Maybe because for a bit of block laying its a fucking rip off. I would suggest the majority of cost was swallowed up in consultancy fees. Mostly TfLs probably.

 

[gaijingirl]

I have to deal on occassion with Lambeth council and the way that anything they do gets handled leads me to believe that the costs could be at least halved on anything and everything they are involved with and with people still eating well on the back of it.

We get bills for works done on our estate and they're laughable... a memorable example was £50 to remove a dead fox...

 

[teuchter]

Maybe because for a bit of block laying its a fucking rip off. I would suggest the majority of cost was swallowed up in consultancy fees. Mostly TfLs probably.

You have to admit it was rather more than "a bit of block laying".

You say quite confidently that it's a rip off - obviously you are au fait with the usual costs of this kind of project. What figure would you consider reasonable (so far, everyone who has expressed an opinion that it is too expensive seems to be dodging this question for some reason)?

 

[editor]

It's not clear from the press release whether that is just for the square or whether it includes the road realignments and all the other stuff. Also the £9.7m figure seems to be the GLA investment - which is not necessarily the total cost.

Why do you use the adjective "staggering"?

Because nearly £10m is a staggeringly high figure to me.

 

[editor]

You say quite confidently that it's a rip off - obviously you are au fait with the usual costs of this kind of project. What figure would you consider reasonable (so far, everyone who has expressed an opinion that it is too expensive seems to be dodging this question for some reason)?

Mr Pot is on the phone for you, Mr Kettle.


You repeatedly refused point blank to bother finding out how much the development cost but still had time to start a totally pointless and stupid poll.

 

[teuchter]

Because nearly £10m is a staggeringly high figure to me.

To me, it would be a staggeringly high figure for a 2 bed flat in Brixton because I know a 2 bed flat in Brixton might be around £220K. It would be a staggeringly low figure for a Boeing 747 because I believe a 747 would cost about £130M.

I don't know if it would be a staggeringly anything cost for a public square refurbishment in London because I don't know what the cost generally of a public square refurbishment in London is. It appears that you have some expectation of what a normal price would be, on account of finding the £10M figure so staggering, but you don't seem to want to share it with us for some reason.



This is all aside from the point that we haven't really established that £10M is the actual cost anyway.

 

[teuchter]

Mr Pot is on the phone for you, Mr Kettle.


You repeatedly refused point blank to bother finding out how much the development cost but still had time to start a totally pointless and stupid poll.

Neither of these sentences make sense to me.

If I am Mr Kettle, who is Mr Pot?

 

[editor]

This is all aside from the point that we haven't really established that £10M is the actual cost anyway.

If you wish to dispute the officially published figure, then I suggest you get off your lazy arse and finally do some research of your own because I'm fed up doing it for you.

 

[Gixxer1000]

obviously you are au fait with the usual costs of this kind of project.

Actually yes I am and £1.5m but im aware that anything involving TfL /Crossrail/ Lu then x10

 

[Gixxer1000]

I don't know what the cost generally of a public square refurbishment in London is.

And it appears, despite your architectural pretensions ,it is beyond your intellect/expertise to work it out.

 

[teuchter]

If you wish to dispute the officially published figure, then I suggest you get off your lazy arse and finally do some research of your own because I'm fed up doing it for you.

It's not the officially published figure for what we are discussing.

But in any case I'm not making any assertions about the cost, so I don't see why it's incumbent on me to do any research.

 

[teuchter]

And it appears, despite your architectural pretensions ,it is beyond your intellect/expertise to work it out.

Indeed it is (at least, without doing a large amount of research which I don't have the time or inclination to do), as I have stated many times.

It would be interesting to know how you came to your £1.5M figure.

 

[Gixxer1000]

It would be interesting to know how you came to your £1.5M figure.

I benchmarked it against other similar projects Ive been involved with.