Windrush Square, Brixton - news and discussion

[teuchter]

You would have thought that it would be packed this sunny afternoon, but that unyielding expanse of concrete seems to be doing the job....

Selectively angled/timed photographs can't change the fact that most people, as evidenced by the poll results, are pretty happy with the new square and don't seem to be troubled by the [non-existent] "unyielding expanse of concrete".

 

[editor]

Selectively angled/timed photographs can't change the fact that most people, as evidenced by the poll results, are pretty happy with the new square and don't seem to be troubled by the [non-existent] "unyielding expanse of concrete".

Ahem. It's not "selectively angled/timed" - it was exactly as I saw it when I was there on Sunday - and I posted the same picture to facebook at the time.

Just about every time I've been in the area it's looked the same and I'm not really bothered about what the skewed poll says.

Had the poll had an option that said it was an improvement on what was there before (really no achievement there) but poor value for money considering what's been spent, I suspect that it might have gathered more than a few votes.

 

[teuchter]

I posted the same picture to facebook at the time.

Well, that's it. Definitive proof!

It's strange that every time I've walked through on a sunny day, the seats in the "concrete wasteland" section have been well occupied. Maybe it's just coincidence

Just about every time I've been in the area it's looked the same and I'm not really bothered about what the skewed poll says.

Had the poll had an option that said it was an improvement on what was there before (really no achievement there) but poor value for money considering what's been spent, I suspect that it might have gathered more than a few votes.

The poll indicates the answer to the question that was posed, which was to what extent the new arrangement is an improvement on the old one. Most people think it's a significant improvement. I didn't ask about value for money because that's a different question. You can't say a poll is skewed because you want to answer a different question to the one that is asked. That would be like saying the General Election was skewed because it didn't provide you with an option to comment on which candidate had the best hairstyle.

The "value for money" question isn't an unreasonable one of course. But it does depend on having some method of determining what is value for money. I can't answer it because I am not a Quantity Surveyor with detailed knowledge of current costs of landscaping projects. I would imagine you would have to compare it with similar schemes that you do consider value for money, and include the relevant figures. Earlier in the thread I asked for this but no-one has ventured anything.

 

[editor]

The poll indicates the answer to the question that was posed, which was to what extent the new arrangement is an improvement on the old one.

Seeing as the old square was a neglected dump, it's hardly a surprise that people think the new version - that's had untold millions spent on it - is an improvement. A far more pertinent question would be to ask if they think the money's been well spent or if it could have been done better, IMO.

Here's the last lot of photos I've taken of the square. No agenda, just honest snapshots of Brixton life, like I'm always taking - and it's not my fault if there's barely anyone in them!

 

[teuchter]

The camera never lies.....

Hastily taken on my way home from work this evening - about 8pm on a greyish weekday. Seems to be being used.

And a demonstration of why grass isn't really much good for heavily trafficked/used space:

 

[nagapie]

The grass looks like that because of the weather, there's been no rain. Our grass outside our block of flats looks like that and hardly anyone walks or sits on it.

 

[editor]

Hastily taken on my way home from work this evening - about 8pm on a greyish weekday. Seems to be being used.

Yes. By about seven people!

 

[editor]

The grass looks like that because of the weather, there's been no rain. Our grass outside our block of flats looks like that and hardly anyone walks or sits on it.

Shame they have directed some of that money for all that posh stone into some sprinklers for the grass.

You can get them from the pound shop.

 

[London_Calling]

Mr Ed - I think you're hung up on the 'square' thing. It patently isn't except in name. Eventually, when it's fully developed, it may develop some characteristics of, say, a European Sq but not many. From everything I've seen, such places need a large range of eatery and cafe type places, to be enclosed and to not have an A road running through them. People don't use the square per se, but the retailing around the sq.

In other words, as a 'square' it's not.

 

[editor]

Mr Ed - I think you're hung up on the 'square' thing. It patently isn't except in name. Eventually, when it's fully developed, it may develop some characteristics of, say, a European Sq but not many. From everything I've seen, such places need a large range of eatery and cafe type places, to be enclosed and to not have an A road running through them. People don't use the square per se, but the retailing around the sq.

I don't care what it's called. I'm just disappointed that so much money was spent on something that seems to be hideously under-performing in an area that really could use a bit if inspiration.
That's all.

 

[teuchter]

The grass is partly like that because of the weather, yes, but if you go and look at it you can see it's all trampled down and there are parts that are bare earth. And you can see rectangular yellow imprints where stuff has been sat on it.

You could put grass and an irrigation system right across the space, yes, which would cost to install and cost to maintain, which would have to be switched off when anyone was using the grassy areas, and would prompt a thread on here about money wasted on expensive irrigation schemes when simple paving would have been more suited to function.

You could buy some 99p sprinklers from the pound shop and watch them get trashed within an hour or two. Actually they should have got the seating and lighting from the pound shop too.

I like the way the "bleak concrete" has been reclassified as "posh stone" to serve a different argument.

I'm not sure what the expectations are for a well used public space on a grey weekday evening - if a majority of seats being used isn't good enough, what are we aiming for? 200 Morris Dancers 24 hours a day?

 

[gaijingirl]

What I don't understand is why two of the grassy areas are yellowing and dying but the other two are still green - when, as far as I can see, both are used equally? There's no real shade on the two green bits (the trees are still too weedy for that...)... ?

 

[teuchter]

I don't care what it's called. I'm just disappointed that so much money was spent on something that seems to be hideously under-performing in an area that really could use a bit if inspiration.

I think that what you're struggling to understand is how difficult it is, in reality, to do something "inspirational" when there are so many constraints and so many people ready to jump on your back about spending money on something unconventional or beyond purely functional. (As demonstrated by this thread)

You have to look at this in the context of what generally passes for "design" of new public space in the UK.

 

[teuchter]

What I don't understand is why two of the grassy areas are yellowing and dying but the other two are still green - when, as far as I can see, both are used equally? There's no real shade on the two green bits (the trees are still too weedy for that...)... ?

I'd guess a mixture of shade (buildings as well as trees) and the fact that there aren't so many people walking on them. It might also happen that the way the ground lies, any water there is tends to go in that direction.

 

[London_Calling]

I don't care what it's called. I'm just disappointed that so much money was spent on something that seems to be hideously under-performing in an area that really could use a bit if inspiration.
That's all.

What do you expect people to be doing there because, at this stage, I can only see standing around as an option?

What is it that's under-performing?

 

[editor]

I like the way the "bleak concrete" has been reclassified as "posh stone" to serve a different argument.

It looks like a bleak expanse of concrete from a distance and the expensive nature of the stone only really becomes apparent when you get close to it.

What could have improved it? It's not my area of expertise but maybe a decent fun fountain for kids rather than the sad dribbling excuse tucked away in the corner might have been better. Or at the least redesigning the current one that's there so it doesn't form big puddles towards Rushcroft Road. Oh, and having it turned on kinda helps too.

And perhaps a little open cafe and some shade at the other end. More greenery. A garden for the old folks. A paddling pool, open air screen, a bit of inspiration, whatever - I'm not an architect but surely you can't think that the square is the best that could have been done in that space with all that money?

 

[editor]

What do you expect people to be doing there because, at this stage, I can only see standing around as an option?

That'll be because they've taken away just about all of the seats, innit.

 

[London_Calling]

So you'd like more people to sit in the space. ok.

 

[editor]

Some domino tables would have been nice too.

 

[tarannau]

I'm slightly torn by the place to be honest. One one hand it's clearly better than the decaying bunch of random decaying features that were there before; it can be quite pleasant to pass on a sunny evening. The architects have made a reasonable stab at the brief.

That said, it's a bland and sterile brief. A designed to be safe multi purpose space that excels at no activity. Not a great meeting point, resting place, event space, kids outdoor play area or market venue - the best we've seen so far is a clumsily set-up music event. Maybe it'll improve, but it's unchallenging and somewhat uninspirational so far. I can't help but feel that there were better ways to regenerate and breathe life into more of Brixton.

 

[London_Calling]

Well, it's early days init.

 

[tarannau]

Yep, but the feeing that it could be in Anytown, Continentiville kind of lingers. I don't dislike the place, it does seem a little too bland for it to have been a priority for Brixton in the wider sense. I'd like to think that sustained new investment will follow - the BCA building could make a difference for example - but I'm hardly confident in the present climate.

 

[teuchter]

Editor, I think that what you want is a kind of pleasure garden, but what we have is an urban public square. I have nothing against pleasure gardens but in this instance an urban public space is more appropriate.

I don't think it's the best thing that could imaginably have been done with that space - I can make plenty of criticisms of it myself, but all in all, making allowances for what they are likely to have been briefed with, and the numerous conflicting opinions they must have had to try and resolve as part of the "consultation" process, I don't think it's a bad job. Remember that this is the kind of thing that passes as urban public space in much of this country:

Also, I still haven't seen anyone try to make an objective case for it being bad "value for money".



For what it's worth, here's something that I would consider a very good example of public space (although I have to admit I'm yet to see it in person and don't know how it has weathered with time) - Thomas Heatherwick's "blue carpet" in Newcastle. A simple idea, carefully followed through, that makes that place something special. It's good exactly because it doesn't try and cram too much stuff in. An understanding of what urban public space is and does.

I'm sure that the local internet message boards have found plenty to complain about nonetheless.

http://www.hughpearman.com/articles3/blue.html

 

[London_Calling]

As above, a bunch of people walking through a space. In none of the above is the space being used.


I'm not sure why people have different expectations.

 

[Crispy]

It's precisely the lack of 'use' that makes windrush square not a square, as teuchter says. It's a wide pavement and always has been. If the other three sides had as much use as the bit by the ritzy, then you could call it a square i think.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

Editor, I think that what you want is a kind of pleasure garden

I want a pleasure garden

 

[editor]

Its officially called a 'square.'
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...FutureLambeth/BrixtonCentralSquareProject.htm

Windrush Square is the new public open space in the heart of Lambeth, opposite the Edwardian town hall. Part of the historic Rush Common, it has been formed by the amalgamation of the Tate Library Gardens with the adjacent, old Windrush Square. The part of Rushcroft Road that used to separate the two areas has been closed and incorporated into the new square. The works, carried out by Transport for London, have taken nearly a year and this will be the first Open Garden Squares Weekend opportunity to see the result.
http://www.opensquares.org/detail/WindrushSq.html

I wish we could have seen some of the energy and imagination that's starting to be seen in Brixton Village happening in the square. Or, if they don't want people to actually sit there or to interact with the space, put some gardens and trees back so it's less barren.

As for value, has anyone got a figure for how much this all cost?

 

[Crispy]

You can call it a square, but with only about an eighth of its perimeter put to any active use, it can't live up to the name. A residential street, a ruin, and two busy roads. Not what you'd find around the edges of any self respecting town square. Eliminate the 6 lanes of traffic and you could make something like this

Ok so the town halls not quite as grand, but hey

 

[tarannau]

Do that and you could then take a leisurely stroll past the crumbling facade of St Matthews towards the attractions of Halfords and even Carpetright!

 

[teuchter]

^ Editor wouldn't like that either though, because it's just an expanse of windswept posh concrete-stone with no seats and people milling about instead of engaging in distinct activities.