Will you vote for independence?
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alsoknownas
some bloke
Caledonia?
I've just finished my first read-through of the first book and most of the arguments on both sides are spectacularly weak. For instance, the No argument picks up the problem of defence, and highlights the problems of staffing. But that's a short-term problem. Neither side addresses the longer term. The Yes side brushes aside the issue of immigration, with no thought at all to basic issues like can we feed everyone, or infrastructure. The Yes side tries to slam Farage and UKIP and possible secession from Europe, but was obviously written before Scotland elected a UKIP MEP. The No side launches with a panegyric of the Royal Family - is that the best he can do?
I'm going to go through it again, of course.
I'm going to go through it again, of course.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Scotland(as a whole) didn't elect a UKIP MEP, there was approx a 33% turnout and UKIP got a small percentage of that, you're talking about 100,000 people and it's been said in various places some Labour voters went with UKIP to foil the SNP getting the 6th seat. I'm a bit peed off they couldn't have voted green as it was quite close for that 6th seat 
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
pretty much everyone calls it the Jack though. Ole jackie I call it. The other mistake should have been picked up by a proofreader but jack rather than flag could have been deliberate. How many people honestly know its only the jack when its flown at sea?
Yes we did. His name is David Coburn.
That doesn't matter. It bespeaks a basic lack of attention to detail, and if attention to detail is found lacking in one regard, what does that mean for the rest?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
the point I was making was that perhaps it was deliberate in order to use the overwhelmingly more common usage. Although given the other errors it might just be actual mistake, rather than employing a colloquialism
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That would have required a nearly 1/4 of the actual UKIP 140 000 vote to go to the greens (110 000) and to believe that that 30 000/votes were are labur voters looking to stop the SNP. That's not very likely is it?Scotland(as a whole) didn't elect a UKIP MEP, there was approx a 33% turnout and UKIP got a small percentage of that, you're talking about 100,000 people and it's been said in various places some Labour voters went with UKIP to foil the SNP getting the 6th seat. I'm a bit peed off they couldn't have voted green as it was quite close for that 6th seat
Quartz, this thread is littered with basic errors of fact and interpretation by you. Would you be satisfied if everyone here were to reject your non-inaccurate posts without thinking about them due to your general shoddiness and lack of attention to detail?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Utterly non-consequential errors. Pathetic straw grasping by quartz.
Fair point.
(To ButchersApron) So I take you off Ignore for once and you immediately demonstrate the stupidity and fuckwittery which made me put you on Ignore in the first place.
Here's a clue: go back over my posts and see how many pro-Unionist ones I have made. Of course I'm questioning the Yes line - they're the only ones here.
Here's another clue: Yes have to show that they're a better choice.
Don't bother responding as you're going back on my Ignore list.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
How do you reach that conclusion? (As BA's links to there is a DK I just didn't bother reporting it)
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
(As BA's links to there is a DK I just didn't bother reporting it)
well if the ongoing trend means its very close indeed then the DK's will be the deciding vote right? although yes I should have taken indication from adding the figures together and seeing how far short of 100 it was
: I've never been good with mathsredsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Ah ok you're saying that having poll that forced you to go for either "yes" or "no" would give you different figures. It probably would, it'd be interesting to see how much difference it did make but AFAIK all the major polling companies allow DKs.well if the ongoing trend means its very close indeed then the DK's will be the deciding vote right? although yes I should have taken indication from adding the figures together and seeing how far short of 100 it was
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not with a 22% gap (as in that YG poll) they won't - even if they go 100% to YES.well if the ongoing trend means its very close indeed then the DK's will be the deciding vote right? although yes I should have taken indication from adding the figures together and seeing how far short of 100 it was
I really don't care tbh except for the fact it's a one way vote. IMO and in the polls the Scots want independence so let em have it.
Personally I think the rest of the union should also have a vote on it too.
I love Scotland and will regret their choice buts it's their choice, , but as a union of counties the rest of the union should have a choice too, after all it's a choice that effects all of the union.
I totally understand the fever for independence but IMO it's short sighted and the pro independence lobby are misguided. Scotland as an independent state will have a very small voice in Europe (once they are allowed in, and it's not a given) and economically have a very tenuous timeline.
North Sea oil is finite, is costing more and more to extract and as soon as that happens their 'budget' predictions fall apart (I've worked in the oil industry on and off for several years and know what the industry thinks as a whole).
Tourism, Mmm OK
Fishing tourism OK
But what else? Like the rest if this country, manufacturing on a large scale is dead so where will the income come from?
I know all about historical history of the Scots and the English and I've always found it quite good humoured banter for the most part.
I don't mind which way the vote goes but the Scots certainly should
Personally I think the rest of the union should also have a vote on it too.
I love Scotland and will regret their choice buts it's their choice, , but as a union of counties the rest of the union should have a choice too, after all it's a choice that effects all of the union.
I totally understand the fever for independence but IMO it's short sighted and the pro independence lobby are misguided. Scotland as an independent state will have a very small voice in Europe (once they are allowed in, and it's not a given) and economically have a very tenuous timeline.
North Sea oil is finite, is costing more and more to extract and as soon as that happens their 'budget' predictions fall apart (I've worked in the oil industry on and off for several years and know what the industry thinks as a whole).
Tourism, Mmm OK
Fishing tourism OK
But what else? Like the rest if this country, manufacturing on a large scale is dead so where will the income come from?
I know all about historical history of the Scots and the English and I've always found it quite good humoured banter for the most part.
I don't mind which way the vote goes but the Scots certainly should
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
I don't trust YouGov polls. As a Yes voter, I might say that! All random sampling has some random variation (one week its up, one week its down), and their polls don't seem to vary randomly.
If they are using their YouGov panel, I just doubt it is reliable and that would explain the little or no variation in voting intentions. They could be right, I suspect they are trying to influence public opinion here rather than understand it.
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
I mind which way the vote goes... I don't mind which way the vote goes but the Scots certainly should
IMO a yes vote will be bad for Scotland and bad for the rest of the UK.
Governance is increasingly federalist wrt the UK and EU and there is no reason why Scotland can't have more devolution to run its affairs in a different way to the rest of the uk. But it has a larger voice in the UK, and the EU as a part of the UK than it would have on its own.
Further, the loss of Scotland will diminish the rest of the UK in the EU and wider, meaning we have less influence to modify the EU, and are more likely to have to just take what is offered.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Another not on YouGov panel... they claim to carefully handpick people. It is easy to sign up for one, and you can basically put what you want for any of the questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias
No.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
When will you then?
I've not been watching any polls (and distrust them anyway).
I can only comment on what I've seen change. I've only ever been to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen (ooh, and Paisley ) but over the last 20 years or so I've seen the changes in Edinburgh and Glasgow (maybe not Aberdeen
) that have put Scotland back on the map for tourism (and some business). I think that's in real danger if independence goes through.
In the immortal words of Mark Renton "Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any fucking difference."
I can only comment on what I've seen change. I've only ever been to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen (ooh, and Paisley ) but over the last 20 years or so I've seen the changes in Edinburgh and Glasgow (maybe not Aberdeen
) that have put Scotland back on the map for tourism (and some business). I think that's in real danger if independence goes through. In the immortal words of Mark Renton "Some people hate the English, but I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonized by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any fucking difference."
Wind & wave energy, export of fresh water, fishing, and shellfish farming. Shipbuilding will return once the East becomes less competitive. There's mining, forestry, animal husbandry, the East coast is rich in farmland. And much, much more.
In my own good time. This is likely the most important vote I have and will ever cast and I will not be rushed.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Well you will be Quartz because there is a deadline looming soon !!
.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
No they don't. There's only been a single poll that has giving Yes a larger % than No and there's questions about the methodology of that particular poll. The polls have overwhelming shown No as the more popular, though there's variations in how big their lead is.
As for the not trusting YouGov stuff, I'm sorry but it's conspiracy nonsense, they're a member of the British Polling Council, why the fuck would they risk their reputation by biasing polls. In addition, the polling they have done over the last 5 years or so has consistently been as accurate as Mori, Populus etc. Now it's possible that there is some systematic problem with their polling on this issue but their polling isn't particularly out of line with Mori's. Simply dismissing their polls because they are from YouGov is daft.
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Wind and wave energy is a long way off being efficient and you can't export it, potentially you could become self sustaining in terms of energy but it's unlikely and currently unknown.
Fresh water (maybe with the exception of the bottled kind is economically unviable).
Fishing, yeah but when was the last time you were in a supermarket where you noticed a label "fished in Scotland" other than salmon which is mostly fished in farms now and not exclusive to Scotland. In fact the environmental lobby is actively resisting any expansion.
Shipbuilding, please, get grip the only way that will return is if,through desperation, you'll try to compete with likes of South Korea. Good luck with that. There's a fundamental reason why ships aren't built in the UK anymore (other than British naval ships, which won't be built abroad by governmental and naval mandates, under this policy Scotland won't be building any ships for the rest of the UK either).
Forestry and animal husbandry maybe, but that does not an economy make.
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
It's entirely valid for people to make their mind up that they don't or can't know which is the better choice out of the options given to them, now and/or on polling day.
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